How Many Gift Decisions Was Muhammad Ali Given in his Career?

[Greatest1942]

The trick with Ali vs Shavers was that this was one of those fights where the judges cards were broadcast mid round to the viewers. Angelo Dundee had apparently had a spy relaying the scores. I guess Ali therefore knew when he could take a break or put his foot on the gas that night.

Good fight though!

Might be. This my Norton -Ali 3 card

Ali/Norton 3

Round 1: 10-9
Round 2: 10-9
Round 3: 10-9
Round 4: 10-9
Round 5: 9-10
Round 6: 9-10
Round 7: 10-9
Round 8: 9-10
Round 9: 10-9
Round 10: 9-10
Round 11: 9-10
Round 12: 9-10
Round 13: 9-10
Round 14: 9-10
Round 15: 10-9

142-143 Norton

No way this fight goes to Ali period. Same with Young.
Yes I won't go hoarse about Ali -Shavers. But whatever spy was there failed to inspire Ali to do the needful, he took so much bad punishment in certain rounds that it becomes difficult for me to swallow the win.

[Die Antwoord]

What he said. And Doug Jones has more claim to beating Ali than Ali does to beating Jimmy Young. Disgraceful robbery.

That aside, why does the thread starter think Norton beat Ali worse than Frazier in the first fights?

I mean seriously. Does anyone else really feel that way?

I felt like Norton beat Ali pretty handily in their first fight and know that there seem to be more people who dispute the first Frazier fight that the first Norton fight. Im not saying I agree with that, but thats what Ive always heard. Ive really never ehard anyone say Ali really beat Norton in Norton 1, but I hear a lot of people claim Ali really beat Frazier in Frazier 1.

[Sugarj]

Might be. This my Norton -Ali 3 card

Ali/Norton 3

Round 1: 10-9
Round 2: 10-9
Round 3: 10-9
Round 4: 10-9
Round 5: 9-10
Round 6: 9-10
Round 7: 10-9
Round 8: 9-10
Round 9: 10-9
Round 10: 9-10
Round 11: 9-10
Round 12: 9-10
Round 13: 9-10
Round 14: 9-10
Round 15: 10-9

142-143 Norton

No way this fight goes to Ali period. Same with Young.
Yes I won't go hoarse about Ali -Shavers. But whatever spy was there failed to inspire Ali to do the needful, he took so much bad punishment in certain rounds that it becomes difficult for me to swallow the win.

As for Norton 3, yea very close fight. I haven't got my card to hand but I dont recall giving Norton 5 of the last six rounds of the fight, I might have had one or two even rounds at various points in the contest. You had it by one round, hardly makes it the most shocking of robberies......considering that Ali was champ, but I would have accepted a Norton victory too.

In the end I had it to Ali by one round......but it was one of those fights where the loser had caused the most damage AND had the most dominant rounds. This was one fight that showcases the weaknesses in the 10 point must system, because the rounds that Ali shaded would have been scored the same as the rounds that Norton steamrollered.

With Shavers, again the loser caused the most damage, but lost the most rounds overall. I had this fight to Ali by at least two rounds in the end, but again the 6 rounds that I scored for Shavers were bigger than the 8 that I scored for Ali......so again, a weakness of the 10 point must system.

The example regarding the round by round scoring meant that at any point Ali knew that he was a round or so up..........therefore he fought accordingly, with a nice cherry on the top finish.

[Sugarj]

I felt like Norton beat Ali pretty handily in their first fight and know that there seem to be more people who dispute the first Frazier fight that the first Norton fight. Im not saying I agree with that, but thats what Ive always heard. Ive really never ehard anyone say Ali really beat Norton in Norton 1, but I hear a lot of people claim Ali really beat Frazier in Frazier 1.

Quite frankly Norton did deserve the decision in their first fight and Frazier too. I'm Ali's biggest fan, but he lost those two in my eyes!

For me the Frazier win was more conclusive because of the shockingly onesided 11th round.........some refs would have stopped it when Ali was staggering all over the ring. Then Frazier also scores a knockdown in the final round! Ali spent alot of the fight with his back on the ropes, thats no place for a challenger to be......... and then have some of his fans say that he should have got the decision.

[Greatest1942]

As for Norton 3, yea very close fight. I haven't got my card to hand but I dont recall giving Norton 5 of the last six rounds of the fight, I might have had one or two even rounds at various points in the contest. You had it by one round, hardly makes it the most shocking of robberies......considering that Ali was champ, but I would have accepted a Norton victory too.

In the end I had it to Ali by one round......but it was one of those fights where the loser had caused the most damage AND had the most dominant rounds. This was one fight that showcases the weaknesses in the 10 point must system, because the rounds that Ali shaded would have been scored the same as the rounds that Norton steamrollered.

With Shavers, again the loser caused the most damage, but lost the most rounds overall. I had this fight to Ali by at least two rounds in the end, but again the 6 rounds that I scored for Shavers were bigger than the 8 that I scored for Ali......so again, a weakness of the 10 point must system.

The example regarding the round by round scoring meant that at any point Ali knew that he was a round or so up..........therefore he fought accordingly, with a nice cherry on the top finish.

I actually was pretty lenient on Ali in the Ali-Norton 3 fight. Some guys , very knowledgeable ones gave Ali lesser rounds. No even with the ten point system it was a Norton win. Ali did not do much damage, and Norton throughout the fight landed cleaner, harder shots consistently. Even in the rounds he lost. No way Ali won that.

Shavers as I said it was atleast a draw. Nothing less. But Ali didnot deserve to loose either.

Ali got away with these. Also the Young fight was clearly lost. Young was jobbed IMO.

[Sugarj]

I actually was pretty lenient on Ali in the Ali-Norton 3 fight. Some guys , very knowledgeable ones gave Ali lesser rounds. No even with the ten point system it was a Norton win. Ali did not do much damage, and Norton throughout the fight landed cleaner, harder shots consistently. Even in the rounds he lost. No way Ali won that.

Shavers as I said it was atleast a draw. Nothing less. But Ali didnot deserve to loose either.

Ali got away with these. Also the Young fight was clearly lost. Young was jobbed IMO.

I think the Shavers fight is the one I most disagree about. I may give it a scoring in the near future. But there is no way that Ernie won more than six rounds with maybe one even. The maths beat him more than Ali, but hey.....thats the rules.

In the documentary 'Facing Ali' Shavers said that after the fight he really felt that he had won, but after reviewing the film......he had to conceed that Ali had won justly.

Just an interesting little extra, I met Ernie Shavers a few years ago. Great guy, had lots of time for my questions (most of which he had probably heard countless times!). He rated the 1977 Ali's jab as better than Holmes's, which interested me.....he was adamant that it was faster even then!

His biggest regret was not following up on the bombs in round two, he bought the act that Ali was not hurt when he was playing wobbly legged and waving him in.

He was a really nice chap, he signed and gave me his one travelling copy of his autobiography for promotional purposes! Good guy, it really made my year!!!

I will say one thing, if a return fight had been made for 1978, Shavers would have won it. Ali declined rapidly after the 1977 battle. Even in the Spinks return, his accuracy wasn't quite right....despite his obvious improved conditioning.

[Greatest1942]

I think the Shavers fight is the one I most disagree about. I may give it a scoring in the near future. But there is no way that Ernie won more than six rounds with maybe one even. The maths beat him more than Ali, but hey.....thats the rules.

In the documentary 'Facing Ali' Shavers said that after the fight he really felt that he had won, but after reviewing the film......he had to conceed that Ali had won justly.

Just an interesting little extra, I met Ernie Shavers a few years ago. Great guy, had lots of time for my questions (most of which he had probably heard countless times!). He rated the 1977 Ali's jab as better than Holmes's, which interested me.....he was adamant that it was faster even then!

His biggest regret was not following up on the bombs in round two, he bought the act that Ali was not hurt when he was playing wobbly legged and waving him in.

He was a really nice chap, he signed and gave me his one travelling copy of his autobiography for promotional purposes! Good guy, it really made my year!!!

I will say one thing, if a return fight had been made for 1978, Shavers would have won it. Ali declined rapidly after the 1977 battle. Even in the Spinks return, his accuracy wasn't quite right....despite his obvious improved conditioning.

Mate if you disagree about Shavers I can not argue much, as I myself said, it was no robbery or Gift. Gift was the Young and Norton for me. Yeah a draw would have been nice for me, but I won't rant about it.

Ernie was a nice chap. I am sure Ali's jab wasa bit faster too than Holmes. But personally I believe Holmes jab was better because it was harder and approaching Ali's in speed. Shavers might have been put off by faster jabs though.

By the way great that you met Ernie. He is a good chap.

[check hook]

I am of the opinion he lost to Young and also all three fights to Norton. Ali made himself by beating Foreman.

[check hook]

I actually was pretty lenient on Ali in the Ali-Norton 3 fight. Some guys , very knowledgeable ones gave Ali lesser rounds. No even with the ten point system it was a Norton win. Ali did not do much damage, and Norton throughout the fight landed cleaner, harder shots consistently. Even in the rounds he lost. No way Ali won that.

Shavers as I said it was atleast a draw. Nothing less. But Ali didnot deserve to loose either.

Ali got away with these. Also the Young fight was clearly lost. Young was jobbed IMO.

Many who were ringside agree with this.

[JAB5239]

I am of the opinion he lost to Young and also all three fights to Norton. Ali made himself by beating Foreman.

I gave Ali the second with Norton but know many respected posters and have talked with a few historians who believe Kenny won all 3.