Larry Holmes and Wladimir Klitschko. Titlereign comparison.

[Steak]

I actually feel that two of the most impressive things Holmes did in his career were outside his title reign:

His win over Ken Norton(thats a huge win imo) and
his win over Ray Mercer at 43.

Mercer was a damn good fighter back in the day, and showed it with his multiple good wins and the very tough fight he gave Lewis, yet Holmes beat him more one sidedly than Lewis did even at his old age.

Norton in general is a very underrated fighter, simply because he happened to run into the two hardest punchers of all time. He was very clever and a hard hitter as well, just didnt deal with pressure as well as he did boxer types.

Holmes' title reign was good, but mostly because of the length of it. He could have fougth better compeition, although some of his wins are underrated.

the gaping hole in Wladimir's record is that he never, and will never, end up fighting the other best Heavyweight of his era: his brother. His losses dont help either, but overall I think at the end of his career he will deserve his spot amongst the top ten.

[QueensburyRules]

Yes, but how serious was he taking it? It was Kirk Johnson. Vitali clearly showed up in good shape and should have been; undercard or not, he'd proven nothing, accomplished little, and SHOULD have been hungry at that point. Lewis was pounds over 250. He underperformed badly every time he came in that high accept against Botha; Lewis at 250+ = crappy Lewis. McCall and Rahman the first time were both career high weights as well and we know how those went. Vitali might not have been the best he could have been for Lewis, but he was closer than Lewis and much younger to boot.

Still couldn't get the job done.

- - Ah, a rare thread created by our Nelson and bolstered by our Rold, and so...

Lewie was the mainliner vs Johnson with Tyson insupport to promote their rematch that Lewie de$perately wanted. Mike fed up with it all, exited, and so enter Vit as replacement 3 weeks before the date, but mysteriously Johnson hurts his tltty in training to exit, so Vit who is coming of his 3rd consecutive civil suit win to force Lewie to fight, why lo and behold, Vit is upgraded...

Lewie had started training in England by flying in Manny for at least 4 weeks, and then moved to the States for a full 8 week regular training session, 12+ weeks total to 3 weeks for Vit. This was the first of 6 fights Lewie planned before retirement as he outlined in an interview. Yes, Lewie put on weight steadily throughout a long career and won most all of those fights.

Vit beats up Lewie pretty bad in a fight that had HBO near drowning in ecstasy, but Mr Villain, loose(ned) medical tape cuts Vit with a "missed" right hand that, Lewie being a pro in the most blatant dark arts, exploits to get the stoppage, but as it turned Vit only lost the battle. Vit won the WAR by forcing Lewie into numerous public retreats that postponed the WBC mandated rematch until the WBC had him down to his last couple of days before they strip him. He say his Mommy wouldn't let him fight Vit, and so a previously stellor career ended with his soiling hisself by ducking not only his biggest career purse for the rematch that had HBO and fight fans salivating, but also the 4 fights he had planned.

The End...c'st la vie...

[QueensburyRules]

- - Anyway, Wlad was a record setting title holder who with great difficulty because of the corrupt nature of boxing unified his titles.

Lar just a single belt holder in a multibelt era he helped create. Wlad went out in a FOY quality, Grecian Hero fight against Colossus AJ who managed to unify them.

Lar went out in a bitter fight against 4 rd 330lb rotundity, Butterbean, where Lar who is being mocked by Bean for running, is humiliated in his last moment in boxing when Butterbean knocks him down, a fan favorite highlight reel to match that of Kostya knocking out Zabby...

[Dr. Z]

It's a common assumtion that the heavies of today are the worst crop ever. Outside the K-bros the contenders are terrible. Of course it's a subjective reasoning.

My feeling is that the era of Joe Louis and more recently Larry Holmes also had a pretty weak cast.

This thread will show a strenght comparison between the (alphabet) titlereigns of Larry Holmes and Wlad Klitschko.

For the sake of this thread I will only measure Larry Holmes 'first' career and deal with Wlad's as if he retired today.


Record in titlefights:

Wlad: 16-2 (14 KO's)
Holmes: 20-3 (14 KO's)



Strenght of schedule (Ring magazine ranking of opponent):

U = Outside top 10.

RED = Loss

Wlad: 10, U, U, U, U, 9, U, U, 1, 7, U, 7, 6, 8, U, 3, 4, U

Holmes: 3, 8, 10, 4, 5, 7, 6, 10, U, 7, 8, 11, 3, 10, 0, 10, 4, 9, U, 1, 1.


Notable opponents not fought:

Wlad: Vitali Klitschko, David Haye, Lennox Lewis.

Holmes: Mike Weaver II, Micheal Dokes, Pinklon Thomas.

Well Holmes did fight Mike Weaver both of whom were over 45. Swap out Weaver for say Greg Page.

Wlad did beat David Haye. It was one of his best wins, and obviously did not fight his brother. Wlad ducked no man or missed out them.

[Willow The Wisp]

- - Anyway, Wlad was a record setting title holder who with great difficulty because of the corrupt nature of boxing unified his titles.

Lar just a single belt holder in a multibelt era he helped create. Wlad went out in a FOY quality, Grecian Hero fight against Colossus AJ who managed to unify them.

Lar went out in a bitter fight against 4 rd 330lb rotundity, Butterbean, where Lar who is being mocked by Bean for running, is humiliated in his last moment in boxing when Butterbean knocks him down, a fan favorite highlight reel to match that of Kostya knocking out Zabby...

Belts, as we know can be both won and lost without a fight, especially the latter, which scuttles any real meaning. What happens in the ring of course, does matter. Interesting old thread to pull up. B.N. did good work there.
Both Larry Holmes and Wladimir Klitschko enjoyed long reigns in which they beat the best of their respective eras. There will always be misses to harp on. For Holmes those were strictly limited to contenders who blew their chance by losing to someone else (Page losing to Berbick on an undercard bout, Coetzee getting planted by Page, Dokes by Coetzee, etc.) And Wladimir's big miss was of course his own brother, the 2nd best of that era by a nose before a precipitous drop in abilities among the contenders of that age, most of whom were seen to by one Klitschko or the other.

Holmes was aged 52 for his retirement fight in which he toyed with Eric Esch in 2002.
Page was dead by that age. Dokes nearly.

[QueensburyRules]

Belts, as we know can be both won and lost without a fight, especially the latter, which scuttles any real meaning. What happens in the right of course, does matter. Interesting old thread to pull up. B.N. did good work there.
Both Larry Holmes and Wladimir Klitschko enjoyed long reigns in which they beat the best of their respective eras. There will always be misses to harp on. For Holmes those were strictly limited to contenders who blew their chance by losing to someone else (Page losing to Berbick on an undercard bout, Coetzee getting planted by Page, Dokes by Coetzee, etc.) And Wladimir's big miss was of course his own brother, the 2nd best of that era by a nose before a precipitous drop in abilities among the contenders of that age, most of whom were seen to by one Klitschko or the other.

Holmes was aged 52 for his retirement fight in which he toyed with Eric Esch in 2002.
Page was dead by that age. Dokes nearly.

- - Lar title record being generous giving him Snail Mail WBC champ Ken Norton that most thought he lost, why against any titlist holding a belt, Lar is a measly, ie contemptibly miserable, 1-6, 0 KOs.

Read it and weep for thee.

Also this thread missing Wlad last 5 years when even Ring had to admit failure in understanding his record setting career.

[Ivich]

- - Lar title record being generous giving him Snail Mail WBC champ Ken Norton that most thought he lost, why against any titlist holding a belt, Lar is a measly, ie contemptibly miserable, 1-6, 0 KOs.

Read it and weep for thee.

Also this thread missing Wlad last 5 years when even Ring had to admit failure in understanding his record setting career.

Holmes fought the entire Norton fight with a torn left biceps muscle.

[Ivich]

Well Holmes did fight Mike Weaver both of whom were over 45. Swap out Weaver for say Greg Page.

Wlad did beat David Haye. It was one of his best wins, and obviously did not fight his brother. Wlad ducked no man or missed out them.

Wlad ducked no man or missed out them.[/QUOTE]
When did he fight;
Tyson
Holyfield
Tua
Lewis
Ruiz
Oquendo
Maskaev
Grant
All ranked when he was?


It's a better record than his Brother's,but lets not pretend he cleared out the ranking contenders!

[BattlingNelson]

When did he fight;
Tyson
Holyfield
Tua
Lewis
Ruiz
Oquendo
Maskaev
Grant
All ranked when he was?


It's a better record than his Brother's,but lets not pretend he cleared out the ranking contenders!

Let's not pretend that Tyson, Holyfield, Tua, Lewis would have taken a fight with Wlad.

[Ivich]

Let's not pretend that Tyson, Holyfield, Tua, Lewis would have taken a fight with Wlad.

Why not who did Lewis or Holyfield duck? They were all ranked when Wlad was.Lewis would have decapitated Wlad imo