What if Vitali's comeback opponent had been Jack Dempsey?

[sonnyboyx2]

Jess Willard was a big stiff. Film exists that proves that. There have always been bad big heavyweights. But fighters like Lewis, Bowe, and the K brothers raised the bar.

At this point I have to seperate the brothers because they are not clones of each other. Since the thread is about Vitali, I'll focus on him. If you have seen all his fights, you should have noticed that he always dictates the pace and tempo of his fights. That alone throws off many top heavyweights who are used to having things their way. Vitali is simply too big, too strong, and too awkward to throw off his game. He has a proven chin and I don't see most of the past heavyweights in the low 200's hurting him enough to keep him off. That means they would have to outbox him for the full 12/15 rounds. No doubt fighters like Ali, Holmes, and Lewis may be able to pull that off. But too many others just wouldn't match up very well.

I have total respect for great champions like Marciano and Louis (who is no worse than #2 all time). But if you saw them in a boxing ring facing off against Vitali Klitschko, you would probably get a sick feeling you were about to see an ugly mismatch. I'm not saying that the Klitschko's deserve to be rated near the top of the ATG's. But they are two of the toughest matchups in boxing history.

your having a laugh here...
who has Vitali fought who was a big puncher?
who has Vitali fought who can put combinations together?
who has Vitali fought who is `Fleet-Footed"?
who has Vitali fought who hit him on the chin so as to prove that he has a "Brilliant-Chin" like you claim..

Vitali Klitschko has only ever fought `Tomato-cans, Journeymen and a couple of fringe contenders who was on their way down... Face up to the facts & evidence which is in front of you instead of coming out with ridiculous assumptions made up by you to improve your nuthugging agenda... ask yourself the questions i have put to you above, then try to claim that he is an ATG... Vitali is no better than Willard or Carnera..

[sonnyboyx2]

When you got to Floyd Patterson I realized there was no point in continuing this. He wouldn't see the 5th round against either brother. And by 5th round I really mean the 3rd. But the respect is mutual and maybe one day we'll find common ground on some other boxing topic.

This is a ridiculous assumption.. why would Patterson not see out the 3rd round... IMO it is the other way the Klitschko's would be lucky to survive beyond the halfway mark against Patterson who was an unbelievably skilled fighter with excellent footwork, Patterson's leaping in lightening fast left-hook would almost certainly catch the Klits on the chin because they have zero defence as well as zero mobility.. Patterson would win via brutal KO (poleaxing)..

The Bigger they are, The harder they fall.

Jack Dempsey loved fighting big cumbersome behemoths claiming they was easy to beat because of there slowness and limited footwork, yet both Klitschko's fall into that bracket of being slow with limited footwork... Dempsey easily beat Willard 6ft 6ins, Fred Fulton 6ft 5ins, Carl Morris 6ft 4ins... Dempsey's chief sparring partners George Godfrey & Dan Daily was both 6ft 3ins & 6ft 6ins..

Boxing has always had Super-sized heavyweights and they was all cumbersome behemoths just like the Klitschko's

[Spartacus Sully]

patterson wasnt all that impressive he was skillful and a good boxer but there was nothing about him to give him an edge over some one like vitali or wlad.

not incredibly tough and no tremendous KO power.

I really dont see him sticking with it past 5 rounds with either klitschko.

[sonnyboyx2]

patterson wasnt all that impressive he was skillful and a good boxer but there was nothing about him to give him an edge over some one like vitali or wlad.

not incredibly tough and no tremendous KO power.

I really dont see him sticking with it past 5 rounds with either klitschko.

what is your interpretation of TOUGH ?

Floyd Patterson beat Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo drew with Jerry Quarry who are three of the toughest contenders in any era of boxing, Floyd KOd 6ft 3in Todd Herring beat Tommy `hurricane`Jackson also 6ft 3ins+ as well as being good enough to beat KO King Archie Moore, Henry Cooper, Ingo Johansson (twice) and the very good Eddie Machen he also went 12rds with Cassius Clay in 1965 who was on that night the greatest heavyweight of all times, Floyd also lost a highly debatable decision to Jimmy Ellis in 1968..

Floyd Patterson would have little trouble beating every opponent that either Klitschko brother has ever beaten or do you disagree ?

What are you basing your theory on that the Klitschko;s would have an edge over him?.... "Height & weight"?

[Spartacus Sully]

what is your interpretation of TOUGH ?

Floyd Patterson beat Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo drew with Jerry Quarry who are three of the toughest contenders in any era of boxing, Floyd KOd 6ft 3in Todd Herring beat Tommy `hurricane`Jackson also 6ft 3ins+ as well as being good enough to beat KO King Archie Moore, Henry Cooper, Ingo Johansson (twice) and the very good Eddie Machen he also went 12rds with Cassius Clay in 1965 who was on that night the greatest heavyweight of all times, Floyd also lost a highly debatable decision to Jimmy Ellis in 1968..

Floyd Patterson would have little trouble beating every opponent that either Klitschko brother has ever beaten or do you disagree ?

What are you basing your theory on that the Klitschko;s would have an edge over him?.... "Height & weight"?

tough isnt who you beat its how you lose...and not losing via 1st round kos to liston or multiple tkos through ones carreer would allow for the presence of an arument twords ones toughness, but given the sheer number of times flyod had been knocked down knocked out or stopped through out his carreer it really voids any type of argument for him having anykind of super chin that could stand up to some one that even though slow is still throwing straight powerful punches froma 50lb heavier frame.

like george chuvalo maybe tough but that dosnt make any one who beats him tough.

as far as height and weight go that factors in alot to my theory but theres aloso the 6 inch larger chest 2 in larger waist 7-8 inches more reach 2 inch bigger neck 2 inch bigger thighs and 2 inch bigger calves.

hes not just larger in height and weight but hes proportianetly larger in height and weight.

and beyond that they do have some skills they may not be all that fast but they are 240+ lbs and for that height/weight they do have decent speed.

sure if floyd had an amazing chin and a 1 hit ko punch then there would be something to prevent or atleast help cope with the buillying pushing laying on and tieing up of the arms....but theres not and the likely ness of floyd lasting 12 rounds is about as likely as fitzsimmons lasting 15 or however many with jeffries.

scratch that its nothing like fitz vs jeffries as they almost had the same reach, same chest size, fitz with a bigger waist, and same forearm and on top of that fitz was pretty tough (being 160+ and fighting 200+ lb people) and quite the puncher.

[sonnyboyx2]

tough isnt who you beat its how you lose...and not losing via 1st round kos to liston or multiple tkos through ones carreer would allow for the presence of an arument twords ones toughness, but given the sheer number of times flyod had been knocked down knocked out or stopped through out his carreer it really voids any type of argument for him having anykind of super chin that could stand up to some one that even though slow is still throwing straight powerful punches froma 50lb heavier frame.

like george chuvalo maybe tough but that dosnt make any one who beats him tough.

as far as height and weight go that factors in alot to my theory but theres aloso the 6 inch larger chest 2 in larger waist 7-8 inches more reach 2 inch bigger neck 2 inch bigger thighs and 2 inch bigger calves.

hes not just larger in height and weight but hes proportianetly larger in height and weight.

and beyond that they do have some skills they may not be all that fast but they are 240+ lbs and for that height/weight they do have decent speed.

sure if floyd had an amazing chin and a 1 hit ko punch then there would be something to prevent or atleast help cope with the buillying pushing laying on and tieing up of the arms....but theres not and the likely ness of floyd lasting 12 rounds is about as likely as fitzsimmons lasting 15 or however many with jeffries.

scratch that its nothing like fitz vs jeffries as they almost had the same reach, same chest size, fitz with a bigger waist, and same forearm and on top of that fitz was pretty tough (being 160+ and fighting 200+ lb people) and quite the puncher.

you have based your argument on nothing other than Height & Weight...How then did Dempsey destroy Jess Willard, Carl Morris & Fred Fulton? ... yet he was similar in stature & weight to Floyd Patterson... if we are to go by your theory then Nikolay Valuev would be champion for life.

You say Chuvalo maybe tough but that dont make anyone who beats him tough.. of course it does, it shows that the person who beat him can withstand his toughness and tough it out to beat him by using superior skills.. do the Klitschko's have greater skills that Patterson the answer is .. no they don't... You are downgrading Patterson for his 2 losses to Sonny Liston yet Liston was a "Monster back in 62.. why are you not calling into question the Klitschko's losses against Brewster & Sanders, the quitting against Byrd and the mediocre opposition they have fought.. Your whole argument is based on nothing other than Height & Weight yet Valuev is a giant compared to both of them with Valuev getting beat by cruiserweight David Haye getting a disputed decision over both Holyfield & Ruiz both who are fighters the Klitschko's refuse to fight, what are you going to claim next... The Klits are more skilled than Valuev which would be laughable, Valuev has fought the better opposition which is why he has suffered the defeat

[Spartacus Sully]

you have based your argument on nothing other than Height & Weight...How then did Dempsey destroy Jess Willard, Carl Morris & Fred Fulton? ... yet he was similar in stature & weight to Floyd Patterson... if we are to go by your theory then Nikolay Valuev would be champion for life.

You say Chuvalo maybe tough but that dont make anyone who beats him tough.. of course it does, it shows that the person who beat him can withstand his toughness and tough it out to beat him by using superior skills.. do the Klitschko's have greater skills that Patterson the answer is .. no they don't... You are downgrading Patterson for his 2 losses to Sonny Liston yet Liston was a "Monster back in 62.. why are you not calling into question the Klitschko's losses against Brewster & Sanders, the quitting against Byrd and the mediocre opposition they have fought.. Your whole argument is based on nothing other than Height & Weight yet Valuev is a giant compared to both of them with Valuev getting beat by cruiserweight David Haye getting a disputed decision over both Holyfield & Ruiz both who are fighters the Klitschko's refuse to fight, what are you going to claim next... The Klits are more skilled than Valuev which would be laughable, Valuev has fought the better opposition which is why he has suffered the defeat

Tough: resistant to cutting or chewing, not given to gentleness or sentimentality, sturdy

tough says nothing about ones power, only their resilience. because you can take the punch of a tough person dosnt mean your tough.

im basing this on height weight how its distributed through out the body, the advantages of weight like pushing, clinching, laying, the presence of some skill, like a guard(which dosnt need to be high due to height), reach, power and some speed while still throwing straight punches, a good right and left straights, complimented by a single purpose jab that despite being single purpose does its job well, as well as shadow boxing videos and pad work showing that they can box despite all hugging that goes on in the ring.

vrs some one that can box about 48 - 63% better.

[sonnyboyx2]

Like it or not but The Klitschko's are very slow and ponderous with poor skills in the boxing department.. Cassius Clay was able to defeat a prime Sonny Liston by avoiding ever getting into a clinch with him as was Dempsey vs Willard, both used their speed and skills to break-down their bigger opponent which is how the Klitschko's will be beaten.. Dempsey, Patterson, Frazier & Tyson would roll-in under their jab and land huge left-hooks smack on the button of either brother because they are wide-open for it to happen.. Sam Peter, Juan Carlos Gomez, Kevin Johnson, Chris Byrd, Albert Sosnowski, Chris Arreola etc etc etc none of them have the ability or skill to "ROLL-IN" under the jab and crash home the Left-Hook yet Frazier, Dempsey, Patterson, Tyson are all owners of devastating Left-Hooks as is Evander Holyfield with them all having excellent form against very Heavy Tall fighters..

[TheGreatA]

I would expect this from Dempsey, i dont for one second think that he would be scared of Vitali, so he'll charge forward regardless. He had that killer instinct but Dempsey didnt deal too well with boxers as it was evident against Tunney, and many will say that Jack was past his best years i still think that ringwise technicians always bothered him, even in his prime.

now Vitali may not be as fast as Tunney, but he certainly had shown a good ability to defend well against bull rushes on backfoot. Vitali can box and he can brawl, Jack only knows one way to fight. With Dempsey he'd know exactly what to expect. The fight may have shades of early rounds between Sanders vs Vitali.

Another thing about Jack is his whiskers. He joins the club of Louis, and Patterson as fighters that been down the most, and if i recall correctly Dempsey hit the deck on 17 different occasions, against lesser punchers than Vitali. Vitali doesnt have his brother's power but he has the ability to get the job done.

I disagree with you there, I don't think Vitali handles pressure all that well technically. He tends to back straight up, while leaving his chin out there, but his height helps a lot and he gets away with it. Then again the likes of Chris Arreola and a 38 year old, out of shape Corrie Sanders weren't exactly a prime Jack Dempsey. Lewis was able to put pressure on Vitali very effectively despite not exactly being in his prime, not that Lewis at 6'5, 255 lbs is comparable to the far smaller Dempsey, but Dempsey's pressure is surely more fast-paced than anyone's Vitali has ever faced.

One thing that Willard did have, for all his faults, was a cast iron chin. It was thought to be virtually impossible to knock him out until the Dempsey fight. He was not the only tall fighter that Dempsey knocked over, the faster and more skilled 6'6 Fred Fulton, whom Willard avoided, was KO'd in just 20 seconds by Dempsey. Fulton of course lacked the strength and durability of a Willard or Vitali.

[sonnyboyx2]

Here is a link... watch the speed of Dempsey's left-hook & combinations which is something Vitali has never faced in his entire career.. Vitali fights similar to Willard...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3BTycNuY44