What if Vitali's comeback opponent had been Jack Dempsey?

[crold1]

He would be a tough fight for every single one of them, and against fighters like Marciano, Dempsey, Patterson, etc. it would be a physical mismatch. You don't have to like the guy, but at least be realistic.

I think, of all the smaller champs (sub 200 guys) Dempsey would have the best shot at either Klitschko because he was an all out animal. Big guys didn't bother him as much as smaller boxers. A lot would depend on whose rules were applied. In his era, when he could hit a man as soon as they had both gloves off the floor, he'd have a shot. In this one, with much bigger gloves, standing eights, and heavier officiating, it would be interesting.

[Scott9945]

Those are all superior fighters and to think because he has 5+ inches and 50 pounds on those guys that he will automatically win would have cost you dearly had you bet on Jess Willard when he fought Dempsey, or the supersize heavy's that Tyson dealt with in the 80's. Size isn't everything. Power comes in all sizes, and speed and combination's play a big part in winning a fight. I believe he has a hard time landing on Marciano, Dempsey and Patterson, and add the fact that they are better fighters stylistically and they have more heart and a better chin, they wouldn't have much trouble at all dealing with either Klitschko.

They are slow, robotic, no footwork, etc. I've seen every fight of theirs over the last 10 years and have never seen any film that tells me they could beat any top ATG heavyweights of the past.

Jess Willard was a big stiff. Film exists that proves that. There have always been bad big heavyweights. But fighters like Lewis, Bowe, and the K brothers raised the bar.

At this point I have to seperate the brothers because they are not clones of each other. Since the thread is about Vitali, I'll focus on him. If you have seen all his fights, you should have noticed that he always dictates the pace and tempo of his fights. That alone throws off many top heavyweights who are used to having things their way. Vitali is simply too big, too strong, and too awkward to throw off his game. He has a proven chin and I don't see most of the past heavyweights in the low 200's hurting him enough to keep him off. That means they would have to outbox him for the full 12/15 rounds. No doubt fighters like Ali, Holmes, and Lewis may be able to pull that off. But too many others just wouldn't match up very well.

I have total respect for great champions like Marciano and Louis (who is no worse than #2 all time). But if you saw them in a boxing ring facing off against Vitali Klitschko, you would probably get a sick feeling you were about to see an ugly mismatch. I'm not saying that the Klitschko's deserve to be rated near the top of the ATG's. But they are two of the toughest matchups in boxing history.

[crold1]

Jess Willard was a big stiff. Film exists that proves that. There have always been bad big heavyweights. But fighters like Lewis, Bowe, and the K brothers raised the bar.

At this point I have to seperate the brothers because they are not clones of each other. Since the thread is about Vitali, I'll focus on him. If you have seen all his fights, you should have noticed that he always dictates the pace and tempo of his fights. That alone throws off many top heavyweights who are used to having things their way. Vitali is simply too big, too strong, and too awkward to throw off his game. He has a proven chin and I don't see most of the past heavyweights in the low 200's hurting him enough to keep him off. That means they would have to outbox him for the full 12/15 rounds. No doubt fighters like Ali, Holmes, and Lewis may be able to pull that off. But too many others just wouldn't match up very well.

I have total respect for great champions like Marciano and Louis (who is no worse than #2 all time). But if you saw them in a boxing ring facing off against Vitali Klitschko, you would probably get a sick feeling you were about to see an ugly mismatch. I'm not saying that the Klitschko's deserve to be rated near the top of the ATG's. But they are two of the toughest matchups in boxing history.

Louis would go through both Klitschko's. Neither has ever been hit by anyone who can rip three or four power shots in a row the way he could. Louis owned big guys and neither is that much better, in the ring, than Buddy Baer IMO. Buddy could do things defensively (watch him use shoulder rolls against Louis before the right crashes off his dome) neither could and was as fluid a puncher; his power was up there with there's as well against similar levels of wins.

[Scott9945]

Louis would go through both Klitschko's. Neither has ever been hit by anyone who can rip three or four power shots in a row the way he could. Louis owned big guys and neither is that much better, in the ring, than Buddy Baer IMO. Buddy could do things defensively (watch him use shoulder rolls against Louis before the right crashes off his dome) neither could and was as fluid a puncher; his power was up there with there's as well against similar levels of wins.

If I'm being honest Cliff, then I have to admit that a prime Joe Louis could go through anyone. He was sensational and the last thing I wanted to do was disrespect or underestimate him. But he was also dropped many times, and not always by top competition. If he catches the full power of a Klitschko right cross, his lights might go out. And I'm sorry, but I don't think Buddy Baer compares all that well.

[crold1]

If I'm being honest Cliff, then I have to admit that a prime Joe Louis could go through anyone. He was sensational and the last thing I wanted to do was disrespect or underestimate him. But he was also dropped many times, and not always by top competition. If he catches the full power of a Klitschko right cross, his lights might go out.

He recuperated extremely well. neither was a proven bigger puncher than Baer (look at the numbers and level of opp) and Louis bounced right up and got busy the first time. Schmeling had a monster right and had to pummel him for twelve in Joe's first two years as a pro. Give him back the war years and he probably has 40 defenses. Not saying they couldn't blast him out, but it's a punchers chance fight for either. He'd take advantage of Vit's low hands big time; Sanders rocked Bit pretty good and he was a one handed fighter. Louis would catch Vitali and follow up. Louis was a machine. No shame if they lost there.

[Scott9945]

He recuperated extremely well. neither was a proven bigger puncher than Baer (look at the numbers and level of opp) and Louis bounced right up and got busy the first time. Schmeling had a monster right and had to pummel him for twelve in Joe's first two years as a pro. Give him back the war years and he probably has 40 defenses. Not saying they couldn't blast him out, but it's a punchers chance fight for either. He'd take advantage of Vit's low hands big time; Sanders rocked Bit pretty good and he was a one handed fighter. Louis would catch Vitali and follow up. Louis was a machine. No shame if they lost there.

That is reasonable, although I respectfully disagree about Baer having a comparable level of competition. But in retrospect I should have just left out Louis' name while making my original point.

[crold1]

That is reasonable, although I respectfully disagree about Baer having a comparable level of competition. But in retrospect I should have just left out Louis' name while making my original point.

Baer beat Lee Savold, Abe Simon, and Tony Galento...all of whom would be competitive and/or win over a lot of who the Klitschko's have defeated IMO (heck, Galento or Arreola...ugh). They're all top ten contenders in this era same as then (both being relatively soft eras generally).

And you know I'm going to go after it for Joe man.

[sonnyboyx2]

I would expect this from Dempsey, i dont for one second think that he would be scared of Vitali, so he'll charge forward regardless. He had that killer instinct but Dempsey didnt deal too well with boxers as it was evident against Tunney, and many will say that Jack was past his best years i still think that ringwise technicians always bothered him, even in his prime.

now Vitali may not be as fast as Tunney, but he certainly had shown a good ability to defend well against bull rushes on backfoot. Vitali can box and he can brawl, Jack only knows one way to fight. With Dempsey he'd know exactly what to expect. The fight may have shades of early rounds between Sanders vs Vitali.

Another thing about Jack is his whiskers. He joins the club of Louis, and Patterson as fighters that been down the most, and if i recall correctly Dempsey hit the deck on 17 different occasions, against lesser punchers than Vitali. Vitali doesnt have his brother's power but he has the ability to get the job done.

What a load of rubbish you talk... You are now saying Vitali is more skilled than Gene Tunney (ffs) Tunney was a `Dancing Master`with lightening fast hands, Vitali is a cumbersome behemoth with zero defence other than his height, Vitali is as slow as a hearse whereas Dempsey is lightening fast..Dempsey beat big guys like Vitali on a regular basis with very little trouble... Vitali's claim to fame is losing to am old Lennox Lewis other than that fight Vitali has fed-on trailhorses and journeymen, yet we are talking Jack Dempsey here not Sam Peter or Albert Sosnowski..

Nat Fleischer claiming Willard was a poor champion means nothing as there had only been 6 champions before Willard.

The biggest myth is when you come out with your "Playground-Theory" of "My brother is Bigger than your Brother".. He is too tall, he is too heavy etc etc which is a load of garbage, we have had fighters bigger than the Klitschko's since John L.Sullivans time and they ALL have been very limited & robotic just like the Klitschko's would Jack Dempsey would murder.

[CarlosG815]

What a load of rubbish you talk... You are now saying Vitali is more skilled than Gene Tunney (ffs) Tunney was a `Dancing Master`with lightening fast hands, Vitali is a cumbersome behemoth with zero defence other than his height, Vitali is as slow as a hearse whereas Dempsey is lightening fast..Dempsey beat big guys like Vitali on a regular basis with very little trouble... Vitali's claim to fame is losing to am old Lennox Lewis other than that fight Vitali has fed-on trailhorses and journeymen, yet we are talking Jack Dempsey here not Sam Peter or Albert Sosnowski..

Nat Fleischer claiming Willard was a poor champion means nothing as there had only been 6 champions before Willard.

The biggest myth is when you come out with your "Playground-Theory" of "My brother is Bigger than your Brother".. He is too tall, he is too heavy etc etc which is a load of garbage, we have had fighters bigger than the Klitschko's since John L.Sullivans time and they ALL have been very limited & robotic just like the Klitschko's would Jack Dempsey would murder.

I couldn't agree more. There is nothing left to say on this topic. I do respect your opinion, Scott, but I will not debate with somebody who believes that Vitali would give trouble to all the great champions of the past because they were not 6'7 and did not weigh 270 pounds. As said above, Dempsey wiped the ring with guys like Vitali on a daily basis. Either K brother would be dominated and defeated by small guys such as

Joe Frazier
Mike Tyson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
Floyd Patterson

All are greater fighters and despite the fact that the K brothers weigh more and are taller would knock the K brothers from one side of the ring to the other. They had masterful footwork and had every advantage necessary to beat a big slow super heavy like either K brother. Nothing is more deadly for a big man than a small target that can get low and make themselves a hard target to hit on the chin.

[Scott9945]

I couldn't agree more. There is nothing left to say on this topic. I do respect your opinion, Scott, but I will not debate with somebody who believes that Vitali would give trouble to all the great champions of the past because they were not 6'7 and did not weigh 270 pounds. As said above, Dempsey wiped the ring with guys like Vitali on a daily basis. Either K brother would be dominated and defeated by small guys such as

Joe Frazier
Mike Tyson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
Floyd Patterson

All are greater fighters and despite the fact that the K brothers weigh more and are taller would knock the K brothers from one side of the ring to the other. They had masterful footwork and had every advantage necessary to beat a big slow super heavy like either K brother. Nothing is more deadly for a big man than a small target that can get low and make themselves a hard target to hit on the chin.

When you got to Floyd Patterson I realized there was no point in continuing this. He wouldn't see the 5th round against either brother. And by 5th round I really mean the 3rd. But the respect is mutual and maybe one day we'll find common ground on some other boxing topic.