boxing myths that needs some correcting...

[prinzemanspopa]

Unfortunately for you MOST do believe there would have been a different outcome had this fight been a 15 round fight. This fight was a controversial SD over 12 rounds, and just a few posts down you yourself said Leonard was tired in the middle rounds. does it not stand to reason Hagler would have pulled ahead with another 3 rounds? Can't have it both ways kid.

You do realize that Leonard prepared for a twelve round fight and not a fifteen round fight,right? Different preparation,different mindset,different tactics - doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Leonard was taller and proved he could carry the extra weight and be effective not just a 160, but against LaLonde at 168. It doesn't matter where a fighter starts or ends, only where and when he is effective.

Yes,it does matter,actually.There's a reason why Leonard,who was a grown man by the time he turned pro,started of twenty pounds lighter than the weight Hagler spent his entire career at.It's pretty obvious his natural,most effective weight was at 147 - two weight classes below Hagler's.

I don't know how tall Qawi actually is or what this has to do with the argument at hand, but I know for a fact Hagler is no more than 5'7" and a half tops. I know this because I met him and spent time with him. I know Ray Leonard had advantages in their fight with gloves, ring and size. I also know as a fact that Leonard waited till Hagler declined to fight him because he has said this himself.

Qawi was simple example used to counter your flawed logic.Qawi is shorter than Hagler,fought just two weight classes above Hagler with the same difference in weight that separated Leonard and Hagler.Qawi also wanted to fight Hagler - who wanted nothing to do with him.


You have no facts,gabby.You may think that you do,in which case I suggest that you actually look up the definition of the term 'fact'.

You have proven time and time again that you don't know anything about the sport of boxing and you have no place on this board to tell ANYONE whether they can or cannot post here.

I know enough to have you continually cry and beg for moderation of this section.I know enough to have you continually hand out these silly little infractions.Basically,I know enough.

Now,go run along and console your MMGAY buddy.

[BennyST]

Yeah,the same "monstrous" welterweight who barely weighed in as a middleweight,despite stepping on the scales fully clothed for his fight against Marcos Geraldo.


Leonard wasn't anything close to being a "montrous" welterweight.

If only they all knew that back then,huh? Had they known,perhaps it wouldn't have been such an upset that magazine covers such as this would be used:





Long periods of inactivity will effectively end one's prime.This is just basic common sense.We're not talking about just over a year of inactivity here.


Leonard claimed to have trained for a year for this one fight,and yet he was visibly tired by the middle rounds.Stamina was certainly never an issue before his layoff.

Hey man, I agree with you. It was a massive upset...One of the great victories in boxing history along with Foreman's title win at 45. But, we can still look at certain reasons for things happening no?

It's clear that neither was in their prime, but with Hagler fighting like a moron and trying to use his old style of countering/boxing, against a guy who was still in better physical condition overall and didn't have as much long term wear and tear it played a big part...That's all. It doesn't take away from his win at all. Not in the slightest and the fact he did come back from a five year lay off is still by far the greatest factor in the fight and the most incredible thing about it. But, if we're talking the Hagler of a few years earlier, Leonard would have been hammered and lost it. As it was Hagler tried to outbox him and found out he was too slow and his reflexes and speed not good enough anymore.

You don't think Leonard was a huge WW? Really? Is Margarito a huge WW? He's weighed in quite a bit under the 147 limit before. They're the same size. Just weights and whatever don't mean everything. Just look at Hearns. Was he scary big at WW? Sure looked it to me and he only weighed in at 143 I think for Leonard I. I'm just talking their physical stature. Leonard was bigger than 90% of WW's.

[check hook]

Hey man, I agree with you. It was a massive upset...One of the great victories in boxing history along with Foreman's title win at 45. But, we can still look at certain reasons for things happening no?

It's clear that neither was in their prime, but with Hagler fighting like a moron and trying to use his old style of countering/boxing, against a guy who was still in better physical condition overall and didn't have as much long term wear and tear it played a big part...That's all. It doesn't take away from his win at all. Not in the slightest and the fact he did come back from a five year lay off is still by far the greatest factor in the fight and the most incredible thing about it. But, if we're talking the Hagler of a few years earlier, Leonard would have been hammered and lost it. As it was Hagler tried to outbox him and found out he was too slow and his reflexes and speed not good enough anymore.

You don't think Leonard was a huge WW? Really? Is Margarito a huge WW? He's weighed in quite a bit under the 147 limit before. They're the same size. Just weights and whatever don't mean everything. Just look at Hearns. Was he scary big at WW? Sure looked it to me and he only weighed in at 143 I think for Leonard I. I'm just talking their physical stature. Leonard was bigger than 90% of WW's.

Leonard and the WW's of the 80's were huge. This is why i cringe when anyone suggest Mayweather is a "BIG" welterweight.

- clottey, SSM, Margo, Collazo, PWill, Cintron (when he was there), Cotto are all bigger than Floyd or the same size.

- Leonard and Hearns were HUGE Welters. Hearns was a beast for a welter. When i pick guys like Hearns and SRL to beat floyd it's purely based on physicality---> not skill level. They would bring pressure and combos like no on has before on a comparitively small man.

[prinzemanspopa]

Hey man, I agree with you. It was a massive upset...One of the great victories in boxing history along with Foreman's title win at 45. But, we can still look at certain reasons for things happening no?

It's clear that neither was in their prime, but with Hagler fighting like a moron and trying to use his old style of countering/boxing, against a guy who was still in better physical condition overall and didn't have as much long term wear and tear it played a big part...That's all. It doesn't take away from his win at all. Not in the slightest and the fact he did come back from a five year lay off is still by far the greatest factor in the fight and the most incredible thing about it. But, if we're talking the Hagler of a few years earlier, Leonard would have been hammered and lost it. As it was Hagler tried to outbox him and found out he was too slow and his reflexes and speed not good enough anymore.

You say it doesn't take away from the win and yet you spent the first couple of your lines discrediting it.What was Hagler's excuse for his performance against Marcos Geraldo? A usually aggressive Geraldo,who switched up,forced Hagler into doing all the leading and made him miss and countered him often - sounds a little like what Leonard did,no? And this was supposedly a prime Hagler,right?


And why is it what Hagler did wrong and what Leonard did right? What I saw Leonard getting tired by the middle rounds rather than Hagler suddenly fighting a little smarter.The pace he set in the first four rounds certainly wasn't beneficial to a long drawn-out fight.It was a very un-like Leonard performance.

You don't think Leonard was a huge WW? Really? Is Margarito a huge WW? He's weighed in quite a bit under the 147 limit before. They're the same size. Just weights and whatever don't mean everything. Just look at Hearns. Was he scary big at WW? Sure looked it to me and he only weighed in at 143 I think for Leonard I. I'm just talking their physical stature. Leonard was bigger than 90% of WW's.

Margarito was born into an era in which a fighter can safetly compete at a weight class several below his natural weight.There is no way Tony would have been fighting as a welterweight in Leonard's day.In today's era,a peak Leonard could have made 140 and possibly 135 without too much trouble.

[BattlingNelson]

I know what you mean, and Leonard overall the smaller man, but at the time they fought Leonard was a solid MW size and his physical dimensions were easily bigger than Hagler. Hagler had been there longer though and that was definitely his natural weight.

It's like Pac and David Diaz or something though. Pac started at Flyweight or whatever, but he was bigger than Diaz when they fought. Same thing with Hatton. Everyone thought Hatton was the bigger man, and yet on fight night it was pretty clear they were exactly the same size. Pac had slowly bulked up so he had good solid frame at that weight. People for get that at the smaller weights he was like Paul Williams and he filled out perfectly.

That's just like Leonard. He was a monstrous WW and he filled out over the years that his size at 160 was not of the slightest issue. Was Floyd the smaller man against Mosley? Certainly didn't look it to me. Was Oscar the same size as Floyd when they fought? They both started at the same weight. Was he the bigger man against Marquez? They started only 4 pounds in difference and yet to me it looked like Mayweather was Goliath to Marquez's David.

By the time they fought, Leonard was just as big as Hagler as a MW and yet was actually bigger in his physical dimensions. Hagler was still a very solid MW, even though he was on the small side, but the size played no factor whatsoever in the fight.

Leonard was NOT a solid middleweight size at all. What do you base that claim on? Physical dimensions? What is that? Leonard weighed in with pants and gold ***elry in his pockets and I'm pretty sure that boxrec is wrong in having him weighing 160. I think I remember it was lower.

I'm also pretty sure that Leonard had to work to add weight to Hagler while it most likely was the other way around for Hagler, who had been a MW for longer than most guys ever.

[BattlingNelson]

Leonard was NOT a solid middleweight size at all. What do you base that claim on? Physical dimensions? What is that? Leonard weighed in with pants and gold ***elry in his pockets and I'm pretty sure that boxrec is wrong in having him weighing 160. I think I remember it was lower.

I'm also pretty sure that Leonard had to work to add weight to Hagler while it most likely was the other way around for Hagler, who had been a MW for longer than most guys ever.

I just checked the weigh-in.

Boxrec IS wrong. Leonard weighed 158. Not with pants, but with a shirt, ***elry and probably shoes. So no problem for him at all.

4.40:

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[JAB5239]

You do realize that Leonard prepared for a twelve round fight and not a fifteen round fight,right? Different preparation,different mindset,different tactics - doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

You're ignoring your own double standard. Had the fight been 15 rounds most think Hagler would have won. You yourself said Leonard was tired by the middle rounds of their 12 round fight. It doesn't take a genius to figure out he would have fared worse HAD the fight been 15 rounds.

Yes,it does matter,actually.There's a reason why Leonard,who was a grown man by the time he turned pro,started of twenty pounds lighter than the weight Hagler spent his entire career at.It's pretty obvious his natural,most effective weight was at 147 - two weight classes below Hagler's.

Benny has already schooled you on this. It isn't rocket science, so stop being so obtuse.

Qawi was simple example used to counter your flawed logic.Qawi is shorter than Hagler,fought just two weight classes above Hagler with the same difference in weight that separated Leonard and Hagler.Qawi also wanted to fight Hagler - who wanted nothing to do with him.

None of this has a thing to do with the conversation at hand.

You have no facts,gabby.You may think that you do,in which case I suggest that you actually look up the definition of the term 'fact'.

Here's a little fact for you. You said if I was ever made a mod that you would leave this forum. Why are you still here?

I know enough to have you continually cry and beg for moderation of this section.I know enough to have you continually hand out these silly little infractions.Basically,I know enough.

Now,go run along and console your MMGAY buddy.

Son, unless you learn to control yourself and and grow up I will make you irrelevant in this section. You won't have to leave, I'll make you disappear. This is a fair warning.

[talip bin osman]

Son, unless you learn to control yourself and and grow up I will make you irrelevant in this section. You won't have to leave, I'll make you disappear. This is a fair warning.

cmon donkim... get your treasure trove of usernames ready!

[prinzemanspopa]

You're ignoring your own double standard. Had the fight been 15 rounds most think Hagler would have won. You yourself said Leonard was tired by the middle rounds of their 12 round fight. It doesn't take a genius to figure out he would have fared worse HAD the fight been 15 rounds.

And I will say it again: Leonard prepared for a 12 round fight,not a 15 round fight.Why is this such a difficult thing to grasp?


Much of the reason for Leonard being tired was due to the pace that he had set in the first four or five rounds.Not only would preparing for a 15 round fight require more stamina,but it would also require different tactics and a different gameplan.

Benny has already schooled you on this. It isn't rocket science, so stop being so obtuse.

No,he hasn't,actually.It's no coincidence that one man started out his career at a much lighter weight than the other.

None of this has a thing to do with the conversation at hand.

And what does this have to do with a conversation at hand:

Here's a little fact for you. You said if I was ever made a mod that you would leave this forum. Why are you still here?

Doesn't seem related to the topic to me

Son, unless you learn to control yourself and and grow up I will make you irrelevant in this section. You won't have to leave, I'll make you disappear. This is a fair warning.

You can make as many threats as you want,gabby....I won't ever change my views to satisfy your tyranny.

[JAB5239]

And I will say it again: Leonard prepared for a 12 round fight,not a 15 round fight.Why is this such a difficult thing to grasp?


Much of the reason for Leonard being tired was due to the pace that he had set in the first four or five rounds.Not only would preparing for a 15 round fight require more stamina,but it would also require different tactics and a different gameplan.

So what are you saying, Leonard wouldn't have gotten tired in a 15 round fight because he wouldn't have fought the same? He had to fight the way he did to win the fight and he barely won. 3 more rounds and he most likely loses. How else would he have fought him?

No,he hasn't,actually.It's no coincidence that one man started out his career at a much lighter weight than the other.

Actually he has. Its no coincidence people grow at different times in their early lives and some are able and incapable or unable to carry weight the proper way later on.

And what does this have to do with a conversation at hand:

Just pointing out how you like to twist things when you're being schooled, thats all.

Doesn't seem related to the topic to me

You were talking about facts and how I supposedly didn't have any. Is this not a fact?

You can make as many threats as you want,gabby....I won't ever change my views to satisfy your tyranny.

I've been a mod one day and Im already a tyrant? You don't have to change your views. As ridiculous as many of them are your opinions are welcome. But know this, your trolling days are over. If you continue I will make everyone of your posts disappear till you simply stop posting in this section.