Rocky Marciano VS Mike Tyson.

[uncle_rico]

And just to prove my point which is whites only think Marciano could beat 220 plus pound heavyweights because he is white .
O'Neil Bell is far more skilled than Maricano.Bell actually fights black men in their primes.Bell is 24-1 with 22 ko's which means he can punch.Sure he got a gift whin in his last fight but Marciano got 2 gift decisions earlier in his career as well.Ted Lowry who was 57-46 at the time he fought Marciano and he beat Marciano but was robbed.LaStarza was also beat Marciano and got robbed.
But anyway how many of you think Bell could knock out Lewis or Foreman or a prime Tyson?None of you that is how many.And sure you will say well Marciano is better than Bell.But how do you figure this?If Marciano had to get a gift decision over a guy with almost 50 loses on his record then why would you assume he could beat a guy like Bell?If glass chin guy with no punching power like Charles could stand toe to toe with Marciano then why wouldnt a superior fight like Bell couldn't do the same?
Bell would get his azz handed to him if he tried to slug it out with any 220 plus pound white black rican asian mexican heavyweight with any power and wasnt a complete bum.
It is possible however for a guy Bell size to fight guys naturally bigger and stronger than him and out box them.The problem with that is Marciano couldn't box.He had no jab to speak of.His hand speed was horrible.His game plan was to come foward and try to knock you out.Again sure this worked against other fighters his size but this would be suicide against any true heavyweight who wasn't a complete bum.
So lasty ignore rico.Anything you say to a white guy is racist unless you kiss his ass.I could care less what skin color you are.Infact just a week ago me and my nephew got into a heated discussion about just because you are black you can beat a white guy.Which as we all know is bull.Size is important in boxing.That is why there are weight classes.You don't see featherweights fighting middle weights do you?Size is the most important factor in this.Skill can be second.Toughness is unimpotant for the most part.Chuvalo was tough as hell but did it help him against Foreman?Frazier was tough but was destroyed.Toughness helps if you break your hand or knows or ribs and keep fighting through the pain.Toughness has nothing to do with a guy landing a punch that bounces your brain around your skull and renders you unconcious.
Marciano is a average fighter who would never beat the likes of Tyson so deal with it.I know my boxing and you evidently do not.

hearns, i'm not racist.

again, please, look at the posts in chronological order,
you and *only you* brought up race.

look man, I happen to like the old fighters.
growing up that's all i heard about.
i got first hand stories of louis and marciano and robinson
and lamotta. so, their not distant ghosts you see on ****ty
film, those guys were real to me.

i happen to like joe louis and marciano.
i happen to think they could beat guys like tua and tyson
( the non mammoth heavies ). would smaller guys have trouble
with bigger guys? sure. that's a valid argument. but i still
think this decade's heavies (including all the white guys!)
suck ass.

all this doesn't make me a racist.

again, you keep focusing on marciano. like i said in my last post, let's forget marciano, cuz you are *extremely* sensitive
to the race issue (if you weren't why would you bother trying to justify your statements by saying "all your fave athletes are white" ?)

but look, let's try this again.

let's forget marciano, you can't see past the color of his skin,
sad but true. let's do it like this. i believe joe louis would beat tyson and tua. ok?

let's argue that point. i don't care about natural this or that.
louis fought plenty at 210. and yeah he was knocked down, and got up and beat asses. when tyson was knocked down or someone fought back he was done. *done*
a guy like that is gonna beat a guy with 25 title defenses?
i disagree. tyson is *barely* bigger than louis and even if louis got knocked down he'd come back and beat tyson.

so, my argument is not "rocky marciano the savior of all us white devils", i just happen to like the older fighters.
and marciano, a white guy, happens to be one of them.

are you offended why i say frazier wear tear tyson apart?
cuz i believe he would. he fought plenty at 205 or 210,
just like louis.

so, if you wanna argue from the "small heavy vs. big heavy", fine, let's do it; it's an interesting argument.
but leave race out of it. i'm not racist, and you were the only one to bring up race. take a step back and read the **** you wrote. please. you'll see not one mention of race was brought up before you brought it up.

[M26]

hearns, i'm not racist.

again, please, look at the posts in chronological order,
you and *only you* brought up race.

look man, I happen to like the old fighters.
growing up that's all i heard about.
i got first hand stories of louis and marciano and robinson
and lamotta. so, their not distant ghosts you see on ****ty
film, those guys were real to me.

i happen to like joe louis and marciano.
i happen to think they could beat guys like tua and tyson
( the non mammoth heavies ). would smaller guys have trouble
with bigger guys? sure. that's a valid argument. but i still
think this decade's heavies (including all the white guys!)
suck ass.

all this doesn't make me a racist.

again, you keep focusing on marciano. like i said in my last post, let's forget marciano, cuz you are *extremely* sensitive
to the race issue (if you weren't why would you bother trying to justify your statements by saying "all your fave athletes are white" ?)

but look, let's try this again.

let's forget marciano, you can't see past the color of his skin,
sad but true. let's do it like this. i believe joe louis would beat tyson and tua. ok?

let's argue that point. i don't care about natural this or that.
louis fought plenty at 210. and yeah he was knocked down, and got up and beat asses. when tyson was knocked down or someone fought back he was done. *done*
a guy like that is gonna beat a guy with 25 title defenses?
i disagree. tyson is *barely* bigger than louis and even if louis got knocked down he'd come back and beat tyson.

so, my argument is not "rocky marciano the savior of all us white devils", i just happen to like the older fighters.
and marciano, a white guy, happens to be one of them.

are you offended why i say frazier wear tear tyson apart?
cuz i believe he would. he fought plenty at 205 or 210,
just like louis.

so, if you wanna argue from the "small heavy vs. big heavy", fine, let's do it; it's an interesting argument.
but leave race out of it. i'm not racist, and you were the only one to bring up race. take a step back and read the **** you wrote. please. you'll see not one mention of race was brought up before you brought it up.

A great post, man!

[tommyhearns804]

Lol i never brought up race.I brought up white guys will always pick Marciano and black guys will always pick Tyson.I never said anything about Marciano losing because he was white.
Joe Louis defended the title 25 times so your point is?Do you believe Tyson couldn't beat those same fighters Louis beat?Foreman could of done it Ali could of done it Lewis Bowe Frazier.The list goes on.
Tyson never got up from a knock down and win.Marciano never faced 230 pound fighters like Tyson did period.A guy like Bruno would of crushed any 180 pound fighter like Marciano.Douglas would be to skilled.
Can you name another 180 pound fighter besides Marciano who could do any damage against any decent 220 pound heavyweight?Nope you can't.Marciano would struggle against most cruiserweights.The man wasn't skilled at all.No jab poor handspeed.He struggled with guys like Moore who had the worse chin probably of any fighter to win a title in any weight class.Guys like Jones would be to much for Marciano.So would Toney.
Maybe you have a hard time reading.I can't stand Tyson.The man is a rapist coward.He never beat a top level fighter in his career.He never showed heart in the ring.He is a quitter.But against somebody as small and as slow as Marciano it would not matter.He would steam roll over him.
Because you believe Louis could beat Tua or Tyson proves what?Who did Louis beat in his career?Nobody.He fought bums.Bums usually smaller than he was.Louis was almost knocked out by Billy Conn.Conn had 68 or so wins and 11 ko's but yet he almost knocked out Louis.Louis had a weak chin.Louis wasn't fast on his feet.He went for the ko.Tua would walk through him and knock him out.Tyson would jump all over him and do the same.Louis couldnt beat Marciano so there is no way in hell he could be somebody who was a strong,fast and as powerful as Tyson.
It is nice that you like fighters from the past but get real kid.If you are a fan of heavyweight boxing then you should realize the best era was the 70's then probably the 90's.So many average fighters from today would own the 40's and 50's.
And as i said i am not racist but whites do seem to need Maricano as a savior to them just like young blacks need Tyson or older ones need Joe Louis.Tyson is overrated by he did fight true heavyweights.Marciano did not.Marciano is a cruiserweight so compare him with either small fighters from the past or cruiserweights of today.
One last thing you act like Tyson quits the first time he is hit.Tyson has never been knocked out with one punch.It takes punch after punch after after punch to drop him.Tyson isn't close to being the best fighter of all time but he is far better than Marciano could ever dream of becoming.If you want to praise fighters of the past then pick somebody who actually is worth praising.(Ali Frazier Foreman Norton Robinson Quarry ect ect ect).And another last thing i am not here to argue over something i know is fact.Alot of people here make great post.As is said before of all of the forums i am apart of this one is the best.Most of you here seem to know your boxing.I just get tired of saying the same thing in every post about Marciano.Get the man out of your butt.Why do you think weight classes exist?If it was so easy for a 180 pound man to move up and beat heayvweights by slugging then why havent any done it?

[uncle_rico]

Lol i never brought up race.I brought up white guys will always pick Marciano and black guys will always pick Tyson.I never said anything about Marciano losing because he was white.
Joe Louis defended the title 25 times so your point is?Do you believe Tyson couldn't beat those same fighters Louis beat?Foreman could of done it Ali could of done it Lewis Bowe Frazier.The list goes on.
Tyson never got up from a knock down and win.Marciano never faced 230 pound fighters like Tyson did period.A guy like Bruno would of crushed any 180 pound fighter like Marciano.Douglas would be to skilled.
Can you name another 180 pound fighter besides Marciano who could do any damage against any decent 220 pound heavyweight?Nope you can't.Marciano would struggle against most cruiserweights.The man wasn't skilled at all.No jab poor handspeed.He struggled with guys like Moore who had the worse chin probably of any fighter to win a title in any weight class.Guys like Jones would be to much for Marciano.So would Toney.
Maybe you have a hard time reading.I can't stand Tyson.The man is a rapist coward.He never beat a top level fighter in his career.He never showed heart in the ring.He is a quitter.But against somebody as small and as slow as Marciano it would not matter.He would steam roll over him.
Because you believe Louis could beat Tua or Tyson proves what?Who did Louis beat in his career?Nobody.He fought bums.Bums usually smaller than he was.Louis was almost knocked out by Billy Conn.Conn had 68 or so wins and 11 ko's but yet he almost knocked out Louis.Louis had a weak chin.Louis wasn't fast on his feet.He went for the ko.Tua would walk through him and knock him out.Tyson would jump all over him and do the same.Louis couldnt beat Marciano so there is no way in hell he could be somebody who was a strong,fast and as powerful as Tyson.
It is nice that you like fighters from the past but get real kid.If you are a fan of heavyweight boxing then you should realize the best era was the 70's then probably the 90's.So many average fighters from today would own the 40's and 50's.
And as i said i am not racist but whites do seem to need Maricano as a savior to them just like young blacks need Tyson or older ones need Joe Louis.Tyson is overrated by he did fight true heavyweights.Marciano did not.Marciano is a cruiserweight so compare him with either small fighters from the past or cruiserweights of today.
One last thing you act like Tyson quits the first time he is hit.Tyson has never been knocked out with one punch.It takes punch after punch after after punch to drop him.Tyson isn't close to being the best fighter of all time but he is far better than Marciano could ever dream of becoming.If you want to praise fighters of the past then pick somebody who actually is worth praising.(Ali Frazier Foreman Norton Robinson Quarry ect ect ect).And another last thing i am not here to argue over something i know is fact.Alot of people here make great post.As is said before of all of the forums i am apart of this one is the best.Most of you here seem to know your boxing.I just get tired of saying the same thing in every post about Marciano.Get the man out of your butt.Why do you think weight classes exist?If it was so easy for a 180 pound man to move up and beat heayvweights by slugging then why havent any done it?

great. made some progress...

"Tua would walk through him and knock him out.Tyson would jump all over him and do the same.Louis couldnt beat Marciano so there is no way in hell he could be somebody who was a strong,fast and as powerful as Tyson."

ok, so, throwing out all the white/black and who you think white people like or whatever, there's the difference of opinion right there "there is no way in hell he could be somebody who was a strong,fast and as powerful as Tyson."

i totally disagree.

how do you know how fast louis was? based on what, black and white film that makes even ray robinson look ****ty? please. louis was fast and strong and got put on his ass to only get up and knock people out.
you think louis, arguably the best hw of all time, could not beat tua or tyson? i believe he would be both of them.
so, there ya go.
louis was taller and only a few pounds lighter than tyson and even if he gets knocked down, he'll get up and beat tyson.
you can't judge louis' power based on some crappy film you see of him.
if you wanna disagree, cool, i think we've gotten passed the race card, so, feel free to disagree.
oh, and from your posts, i can see you dislike tyson
and i never implied you like him at all.
i just think you don't give joe louis enough credit.

[tommyhearns804]

Rico then how do you know Louis was fast?Black and white footage or green and blue footage the man was flat footed.And the fact he got up from knock downs prove what?Look who put him down to began with.Guys usually smaller than himself which was under 200 pounds.He never got tagged by anybody with Foreman level punching power.Or somebody with a right hand like Lewis.Louis deserves no credit.Just like a guy like Jack Johnson before him.To be considered great you need to fight and beat great fighters.Ali is great.Foreman is great,Frazier,and Norton are great.Louis has a padded record fighting bums.As i said Rico if Foreman Bowe Lewis Ali Frazier Lyle ect ect ect could of fought the guys Louis or Marciano fought do you think they would of lost?Nope i know you don't.25 title defenses mean he was fight garbage fighters.Just look at a guy like ummm lets say Foreman .Foreman won the title from hall of famer in Frazier and only defended 2 times before losing to another great in Ali.Louis won the title from a nobody just like Marciano did and fought nobody doing his time as champ.When Louis stepped up in class he got his butt whipped.First by Walcott who is a average fighter.He lost more than 20 times and was knocked out at least 5.But Walcott crushed Louis in their first fight and was robbed and was clearly winning the second before Louis got lucky and caught him.Next Charles a natural middleweight beat up Louis.Neither Walcott or Charles are in Tysons level.So Tyson would beat Louis easier than they did.
I base what i am saying on the facts.Not what i want to see.Again Marciano isnt a heavyweight.He is a cruiserweight.A small cruiserweight at that.No other cruiserweight moved up to fight real heavyweights and had any sucess by slugging with them.None.0.Holyfield was bigger than Marciano and he never just stood their and slugged it out.Holyfield had fast hands,he could counter punch,He could box.Marciano could not and as i said he was even smaller than Holyfield.So logic would be since no other figher who weighed 180 pounds could do it then Marciano would fail as well.Marciano isn't special.Second Louis was slow footed and had a weak chin.Again he was almost knocked out by a middleweight who couldnt punch even as a middleweight in Conn.Yet con had Louis holding on trying to avoid being knocked out.If Conn could do it then you know the likes of Tua Foreman Lyle Bowe Lewis Vitali K and Wladamir K ect ect ct would have enough power to finish him.I love old time fighters just as much as the next man but trying to say no current fighter could beat any old time fighter is just being a little silly don't you think?

[uncle_rico]

"but trying to say no current fighter could beat any old time fighter is just being a little silly don't you think?"

agreed. today's athletes are bigger, stronger, and faster than ever. i am totally cognizant of that fact, trust me.

but i wasn't talking about foreman and lewis in this thread
(at least i don't think i was), i was talking about tyson and tua (actually i started by saying marciano could beat tyson, then moved onto louis could be tyson to get off the whole black/white thing).
tyson and tua are both shorter than louis and are not much heavier.
so, i don't think size is an issue and i don't think tyson is that much more powerful than louis. i honestly think poor footage of those old fights dont do him justice.
and besides flat feet doesnt mean lack of hand speed and upper body movement.
pbf was flat footed all night against gatti and he was as fast as hell.

so, would big guys like lewis and foreman give smaller heavies the marciano and louis problems, sure, but would guys like tyson and tua? sure, it'd be tough fights, but at the end of the day it would be a battle of wills.
we both know tyson would quit, tua prolly wouldnt, but he'd still lose.
in anycse, i think you give these guys (especially tua) way too much credit.

i think we just have to agree to disagree on this one...

[tommyhearns804]

Both Tyson and Tua weighed about 220 or so in their primes.Marciano weighed about 185 that is 35 pounds.Loius was only about 200 pounds so they have 25 pounds on him.Tyson quit once and that was to Mcbride a 6'6 260 or so pound fighter.Sure Mrbride is a bum well at least a bum compared to any decent 220 modern heavyweight but he is younger and freshed than Tyson is now.Tyson never quit before.Tyson would not quit against a fighter like Marciano.Why would he?Marciano would not make it out of round one.Tyson is to big and powerful for him period.Tua never quit period.And Tua has a better chin than Tyson so why would he quit against Marciano when there is no way Marciano could hurt him?He would not and Marciano would be knocked out in one round by him as well.
I mention Louis was flat footed because to beat Tyson or Tua usually you have to move.Or have a great chin.Louis did not move well and his chin was shaky at best.Again Conn a middleweight almost knocked him out.Louis could never win against Tua or Tyson but just standing there trying to ****.If Walcott could drop Louis with one punch then Tua and Tyson could.The only differnce is Tyson and Tua punches alot harder than Walcott.So i don't see how anybody could say Louis was anything more than a 200 pound man who fought stiffs for all of his career.Loius never beat a fighter like Tyson in Tua in his career and he never would.

[M26]

Both Tyson and Tua weighed about 220 or so in their primes.Marciano weighed about 185 that is 35 pounds.Loius was only about 200 pounds so they have 25 pounds on him.Tyson quit once and that was to Mcbride a 6'6 260 or so pound fighter.Sure Mrbride is a bum well at least a bum compared to any decent 220 modern heavyweight but he is younger and freshed than Tyson is now.Tyson never quit before.Tyson would not quit against a fighter like Marciano.Why would he?Marciano would not make it out of round one.Tyson is to big and powerful for him period.Tua never quit period.And Tua has a better chin than Tyson so why would he quit against Marciano when there is no way Marciano could hurt him?He would not and Marciano would be knocked out in one round by him as well.
I mention Louis was flat footed because to beat Tyson or Tua usually you have to move.Or have a great chin.Louis did not move well and his chin was shaky at best.Again Conn a middleweight almost knocked him out.Louis could never win against Tua or Tyson but just standing there trying to ****.If Walcott could drop Louis with one punch then Tua and Tyson could.The only differnce is Tyson and Tua punches alot harder than Walcott.So i don't see how anybody could say Louis was anything more than a 200 pound man who fought stiffs for all of his career.Loius never beat a fighter like Tyson in Tua in his career and he never would.

I see your point on the weight issue. To have 30 lbs on someone is alot! But a fight is not based on weight alone. I can easily see Marciano in trouble against Tyson like you claim, but at the same time - Marciano would come right at him, something Tyson hated. And Marciano would never, ever give up or stop throwing punches. Tyson has no heart and I can imagine him crying in his corner like a sobbing "girly-man" (gotta love Schwarzenegger ) after a few of Marcianos clubbing shots. Marciano on the other hand, would probably be shaken up from Tyson lightening strikes in the first round, but he would not lose faith. He never did.

To put it this way, if Tyson had half of Marcianos heart, he would have knocked out Douglas back in 1990.

In the second round, Tyson would be a little more hesistant and careful than he was in the first. He would now know that Marciano had the power to hurt him and that he would not fall at once like the frightened Spinks or the outclassed M. Frazier. "No, this guy is here to fight... Damn!" Marciano would come out, even stronger in this round, as he always grew stronger during the fight. Tyson slower pace would make it easier for Marciano to deliver his crashing blows and Tyson would be backed up for a bit. In between the second and third round his personal demons (and he had a few) would start whispering in his ear - "This guy aint scared of ya! He wants to take you out. He's hurtin ya, but you can't hurt him".

In the third round, Tyson would come out with desperation in his eyes, and try to take Marciano the hell outta there. There would be a slugfest with both guys taking and delivering hard shots. This is where Tyson either gets a tko or Marciano survives the round, just to come back and knock Tyson out later on.

I have always been firm in my belief that Tyson would be too much for Marciano, much because of the Foreman-Frazier outcome. But I have later realized that Tyson was never a Foreman, and that he lacked the heart to slug it out with someone who could hurt him. And Marciano had more power than any of Tysons foes. Granted, Lewis had a lot of power as well, but he DID knock Tyson out.

I will change my earlier view on this matter and give Marciano the nod.

Rocky Marciano by tko7.

[M26]

When it comes to Joe Louis, I rate him the greatest heavyweight of them all. There is no question about his speed. It is a well-known fact that Louis had handspeed at Tyson/Ali level. At the same time he was the most flawless fighter I have ever seen in the heavyweight division. Adding his recuperative ability and his punching power, and you got yourself a fighting machine.

He would counter and tie up Tyson from the get go, and hurt him with ripping shots. I see Tyson taking boxing lessons and falling down lessons the whole fight through, with it ending in a brutal ko10.

Tua hardly deserves mentioning, and I pity the fool who thinks he could defeat Joe Louis.

[tommyhearns804]

Joe Louis would beat Tua or Tyson just like he did Maricano .Laying flat on his back.