Ranking of the 1940-1960 lightheavyweights

[frankenfrank]

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Billy Conn
5. Joey Maxim
6. Harold Johnson
7. John Henry Lewis
8. Tiger Jack Fox
9. Gus Lenevich
10. Lloyd Marshall

I am still studying this weight and time zone , so my next post/edit may differ , yes , Marciano was a lightheavy fighting at heavy , he was smaller than Arnold Cream who briefly fought at the weight , comments will be taken into consideration .

I think my next edit/post will have Conn rated lower , and I really wanted to include Cream at the list but he just fought too briefly at the weight and was too big. Archie Moore was also a massive lightheavy who had to use anorectic methods to make the weight , if he could , Marciano could too as he was smaller .

And studying this weight/time is a problem as there is no reliable evidence (full length videos)
If I trusted newspapers and textual sources alone , I could have mistaken Hopkins for a great fighter that he isn't.
Hopkins is a mere foulist with average skills but great foul tactics.
He should have fought at MMA where he belongs , but had he met fighters using his own tactics , he may have been seen as the mere average fighter that he is.

[sonnyboyx2]

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Billy Conn
5. Joey Maxim
6. Harold Johnson
7. John Henry Lewis
8. Tiger Jack Fox
9. Gus Lenevich
10. Lloyd Marshall

I am still studying this weight and time zone , so my next post/edit may differ , yes , Marciano was a lightheavy fighting at heavy , he was smaller than Arnold Cream who briefly fought at the weight , comments will be taken into consideration .

I think my next edit/post will have Conn rated lower , and I really wanted to include Cream at the list but he just fought too briefly at the weight and was too big. Archie Moore was also a massive lightheavy who had to use anorectic methods to make the weight , if he could , Marciano could too as he was smaller .

And studying this weight/time is a problem as there is no reliable evidence (full length videos)
If I trusted newspapers and textual sources alone , I could have mistaken Hopkins for a great fighter that he isn't.
Hopkins is a mere foulist with average skills but great foul tactics.
He should have fought at MMA where he belongs , but had he met fighters using his own tactics , he may have been seen as the mere average fighter that he is.

what a ****in idiot you are, i marvel at your posts on a daily basis because they are too ****in ****** to reply too.. you are the only person i have ever came across in over 40yrs of following this sport who repeatedly insists that Rocky Marciano is a light-heavyweight... he was undisputed heavyweight champion of the world you ****** clown, you are now insisting on referring to Jersey Joe Walcott by his birth name instead of the name he chose which made him famous... The list you have done is nothing but a load of rubbish which anyone with half-a-brain who knows anything about boxing will laugh at, so why dont you **** off to NSB section and `Burn-Out` everyones head in there for awhile instead of this section because you know absolutely nothing about boxing history.

[frankenfrank]

what a ****in idiot you are, i marvel at your posts on a daily basis because they are too ****in ****** to reply too.. you are the only person i have ever came across in over 40yrs of following this sport who repeatedly insists that Rocky Marciano is a light-heavyweight... he was undisputed heavyweight champion of the world you ****** clown, you are now insisting on referring to Jersey Joe Walcott by his birth name instead of the name he chose which made him famous... The list you have done is nothing but a load of rubbish which anyone with half-a-brain who knows anything about boxing will laugh at, so why dont you **** off to NSB section and `Burn-Out` everyones head in there for awhile instead of this section because you know absolutely nothing about boxing history.

Any list of your own ?

[JAB5239]

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Billy Conn
5. Joey Maxim
6. Harold Johnson
7. John Henry Lewis
8. Tiger Jack Fox
9. Gus Lenevich
10. Lloyd Marshall

I am still studying this weight and time zone , so my next post/edit may differ , yes , Marciano was a lightheavy fighting at heavy , he was smaller than Arnold Cream who briefly fought at the weight , comments will be taken into consideration .

I think my next edit/post will have Conn rated lower , and I really wanted to include Cream at the list but he just fought too briefly at the weight and was too big. Archie Moore was also a massive lightheavy who had to use anorectic methods to make the weight , if he could , Marciano could too as he was smaller .

And studying this weight/time is a problem as there is no reliable evidence (full length videos)
If I trusted newspapers and textual sources alone , I could have mistaken Hopkins for a great fighter that he isn't.
Hopkins is a mere foulist with average skills but great foul tactics.
He should have fought at MMA where he belongs , but had he met fighters using his own tactics , he may have been seen as the mere average fighter that he is.

You can take Marciano off the list as he's never fought at 175. You can also take John Henry Lewis off the list as his last fight was at heavyweight in 1939. Billy Conn's best work at lightheavy was done before 1940, though he had a couple of good wins after. You could probably sneak LaMotta into the mix also.

Charles
Moore
Conn
Johnson
Maxim
Marshall
Pastrano
LaMotta
Lesnivich
Fox

[GJC]

You can take Marciano off the list as he's never fought at 175. You can also take John Henry Lewis off the list as his last fight was at heavyweight in 1939. Billy Conn's best work at lightheavy was done before 1940, though he had a couple of good wins after. You could probably sneak LaMotta into the mix also.

Charles
Moore
Conn
Johnson
Maxim
Marshall
Pastrano
LaMotta
Lesnivich
Fox

Bivins? Can understand special boy forgetting Bivins but Jabs! tsk tsk

[wmute]

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Archie Moore
4. Billy Conn
5. Joey Maxim
6. Harold Johnson
7. John Henry Lewis
8. Tiger Jack Fox
9. Gus Lenevich
10. Lloyd Marshall

I am still studying this weight and time zone , so my next post/edit may differ , yes , Marciano was a lightheavy fighting at heavy , he was smaller than Arnold Cream who briefly fought at the weight , comments will be taken into consideration .

I think my next edit/post will have Conn rated lower , and I really wanted to include Cream at the list but he just fought too briefly at the weight and was too big. Archie Moore was also a massive lightheavy who had to use anorectic methods to make the weight , if he could , Marciano could too as he was smaller .

And studying this weight/time is a problem as there is no reliable evidence (full length videos)
If I trusted newspapers and textual sources alone , I could have mistaken Hopkins for a great fighter that he isn't.
Hopkins is a mere foulist with average skills but great foul tactics.
He should have fought at MMA where he belongs , but had he met fighters using his own tactics , he may have been seen as the mere average fighter that he is.

I find no reason to insult you as I don't know your posts, but there are 3 statements which I find obscenely wrong.

Marciano would not be able to make 175 in the same day weigh in era.

Moore made 175 until in his mid 40s.

Hopkins skills are not average in any era and by 2000 standards they are close to unique.

[JAB5239]

Bivins? Can understand special boy forgetting Bivins but Jabs! tsk tsk

I'd like to be able to tell you it was late and he slipped my mind, but the truth is I didn't put much thought into my post and never even thought of Bivins. Nice catch GJC. Im off to work but will put more effort into this later.

Charles
Moore
Conn
Johnson
Bivins
Maxim
Marshall
Pastrano
Lamotta
Lesnivich

[sonnyboyx2]

Bivins? Can understand special boy forgetting Bivins but Jabs! tsk tsk

yes Bivins crossed my mind straight away

[frankenfrank]

what a ****in idiot you are, i marvel at your posts on a daily basis because they are too ****in ****** to reply too.. you are the only person i have ever came across in over 40yrs of following this sport who repeatedly insists that Rocky Marciano is a light-heavyweight... he was undisputed heavyweight champion of the world you ****** clown, you are now insisting on referring to Jersey Joe Walcott by his birth name instead of the name he chose which made him famous... The list you have done is nothing but a load of rubbish which anyone with half-a-brain who knows anything about boxing will laugh at, so why dont you **** off to NSB section and `Burn-Out` everyones head in there for awhile instead of this section because you know absolutely nothing about boxing history.

Any list of your own ?

Bivins? Can understand special boy forgetting Bivins but Jabs! tsk tsk

I find no reason to insult you as I don't know your posts, but there are 3 statements which I find obscenely wrong.

Marciano would not be able to make 175 in the same day weigh in era.

Moore made 175 until in his mid 40s.

Hopkins skills are not average in any era and by 2000 standards they are close to unique.

yes Bivins crossed my mind straight away

Bivins is a reasonable choice to put in the list but who would you pull out of it to make place for him ?
That's why I tell everyone who complains to post his list and see if it is better.
True , he had a KO over Moore , but 2 stoppage losses and then some decision losses against him as well , they fought like what ? 5 times ? 6 times ?
A decision over a young Ezzard Charles but then a stoppage loss and then some decision losses against him as well.
A decision lost against Cream.
A decision loss against Harold Johnson.
Bivins may have been a good fighter , but was on the receiving end almost every time he faced good opposition . The question is if he deserves to be considered one of the top 10 of a 20 years period , and the answer is not as easy as you think without posting your lists.

[sonnyboyx2]

Bivins is a reasonable choice to put in the list but who would you pull out of it to make place for him ?
That's why I tell everyone who complains to post his list and see if it is better.
True , he had a KO over Moore , but 2 stoppage losses and then some decision losses against him as well , they fought like what ? 5 times ? 6 times ?
A decision over a young Ezzard Charles but then a stoppage loss and then some decision losses against him as well.
A decision lost against Cream.
A decision loss against Harold Johnson.
Bivins may have been a good fighter , but was on the receiving end almost every time he faced good opposition . The question is if he deserves to be considered one of the top 10 of a 20 years period , and the answer is not as easy as you think without posting your lists.

JIMMY BIVINS

THERE ARE few fighters who have faced such a high caliber of competition in such a short period of time. Jimmy Bivins, a light heavyweight and heavyweight contender whose career spanned from 1940 to 1955, fought and often beat the best of his era.

Bivins, from Cleveland, Ohio, was a smooth stylist whose ability to outskill opponents was the key to his success. He possessed a strong and quick left jab and was an excellent defensive fighter. Bivins turned pro in 1940 and, within his first 19 bouts, he outpointed middleweight contender Nate Bolden, future Hall-of-Famer Charley Burley and future light heavyweight king Anton Christofiridis.

But the classy ring artist ultimately made his mark from 1941 to 1943. During that span he beat the best fighters in the middleweight, light heavyweight and heavyweight divisions. In '41, Bivins defeated Bolden and future 160-pound king Teddy Yarosz. Then in '42 he decisioned another future middleweight king Billy Soose, future light heavy champs Gus Lesnevich and Joey Maxim and heavyweight contenders Tami Mauriello, Bob Pastor and Lee Savold. In an unprecendented move, "The Ring" ranked Bivins as the number one heavyweight and light heavyweight contender at the close of 1942.

The streak continued in '43 when Bivins posted wins over future heavyweight king Ezzard Charles, Christofiridis, Mauriello, light heavyweight contender Lloyd Marshall, heavyweight contender Lee Q. Murray and former light heavyweight champ Melio Bettina.

The boxing world froze the titles in each weight class during World War II. In March of 1944, Bivins entered the U.S. Army but was honorably in November. It during this time that Bivins was known as the Interim Heavyweight champion. He continued taking on all-comers and in 1945, Bivins knocked out Hall-of-Famer Archie Moore in six rounds. From June 22, 1942 to February 25, 1946, Bivins went unbeaten in 26 consecutive bouts.

It was in 1946 though, that Bivins' amazing record began to even out. Although he continued to fight the best fighters in the world, he started to come up on the losing end of the decisions. From '46 until his retirement he lost on points to Maxim, Jersey Joe Walcott, Harold Johnson and Joe Louis.

Bivins had multi-fight series with many of the fighters he faced. He met Christofiridis three times (winning twice), Maxim twice (winning once), Bettina three times (one win, one draw), Murrary five times (winning three), Charles five times (winning once) and Moore five times (winning once).

Somehow, throughout his illustrious career, a world title fight managed to elude Bivins. He retired in 1955 with a record of 86-25-1 and 31 knockouts. He met seven Hall of Famers, beating four, and 11 world champions, defeating eight.