Would Frazier have beaten Ali the 2nd time if Foreman never happened?

[TheGreatA]

I think Frazier-Foreman was actually very much a wake-up call for Frazier, and he was better off for it. He was interested in everything but boxing by 1973 and didn't have the fire of old, although he was still a capable fighter. He got the "hunger" back after Foreman beat him down in devastating fashion and especially after Ali beat him the second time, until the Thrilla in Manila where he gave it his all and was never the same.

If Ali-Frazier II happens in 1973 instead of Foreman-Frazier, I see Ali winning much the same way as he did in their actual rematch. This time Ali would have been the one who was more determined to win. He absolutely could not afford to lose.

Ali also made the necessary technical adjustments, such as at times excessive clinching to prevent Frazier from working in close, while Frazier regressed as a fighter, mostly looking for the big left hook without working the body.

[Obama]

Ali only won the rematch with the faded Frazier because of the super excessive holding. Prime Frazier + normal excessive holding = same result as first fight.

[GJC]

Ali only won the rematch with the faded Frazier because of the super excessive holding. Prime Frazier + normal excessive holding = same result as first fight.

Yes I don't think Perez did Frazier any favours re letting him fight his fight

[prinzemanspopa]

I think there's no doubt that any fresh,active,non-rusty version of Ali handles "smokey" with relative ease,just like he actually did in their rematch.You have to remember that ole "smoke" blatantly ducked a rematch with Ali for three years until he was sure Ali had nothing left after his two struggles with frazier's former sparring partner.


The frazier you saw in the rematch with Ali and the first foreman fight was the same frazier of the first Ali fight.frazier lost to foreman and Ali twice decisively because he was simply inferior to both.


All the foreman fight showed was that frazier had a glass jaw and couldn't take a punch.Had frazier had the testicular fortitude to step into the ring with a puncher earlier in his career then chances are that frazier would never have gotten anywhere near a title shot to begin with.

[frankenfrank]

I think there's no doubt that any fresh,active,non-rusty version of Ali handles "smokey" with relative ease,just like he actually did in their rematch.You have to remember that ole "smoke" blatantly ducked a rematch with Ali for three years until he was sure Ali had nothing left after his two struggles with frazier's former sparring partner.


The frazier you saw in the rematch with Ali and the first foreman fight was the same frazier of the first Ali fight.frazier lost to foreman and Ali twice decisively because he was simply inferior to both.


All the foreman fight showed was that frazier had a glass jaw and couldn't take a punch.Had frazier had the testicular fortitude to step into the ring with a puncher earlier in his career then chances are that frazier would never have gotten anywhere near a title shot to begin with.

Frazier didn't have a glass jaw neither a granite jaw , something medicore ,
you do know the long list of fine opponents that he stopped and he was stopped only by cuts against Ali in their 3rd fight , which suggests nothing like a glass jaw , and by Foreman whom was the only other man (alongside Frazier himself) to stop Chuvalo. If anything Ali was down against Frazier in their first fight and Frazier was not down against Ali in neither fight , and Ali quit against Frazier in their first fight when the fight was stopped in favor of Ali because of cuts . Lyle , Foreman and Bonavena (and less surprisingly Quarry) were hurt by Ali much worse than Frazier was in 3 fights , again , it just doesn't suggest Frazier had a glass jaw.

[sonnyboyx2]

I think there's no doubt that any fresh,active,non-rusty version of Ali handles "smokey" with relative ease,just like he actually did in their rematch.You have to remember that ole "smoke" blatantly ducked a rematch with Ali for three years until he was sure Ali had nothing left after his two struggles with frazier's former sparring partner.


The frazier you saw in the rematch with Ali and the first foreman fight was the same frazier of the first Ali fight.frazier lost to foreman and Ali twice decisively because he was simply inferior to both.


All the foreman fight showed was that frazier had a glass jaw and couldn't take a punch.Had frazier had the testicular fortitude to step into the ring with a puncher earlier in his career then chances are that frazier would never have gotten anywhere near a title shot to begin with.

your post glorifies Frazier not trashes him, it is good that you have changed your tune about your opinion of Joe Frazier.... claiming Frazier had a glass jaw which was exposed when he fought Foreman is you obviously `praising`Frazier`s granite chin.. it is widely accepted that George Foreman is the hardest & heaviest puncher in heavyweight history and you yourself have claimed so many times in the past, yet when a Peak Foreman in 1973 took the title off an overweight and under-prepared Joe Frazier, Foreman sent him to the canvas 6 times in less than 2rds and actually lifted him off the canvas twice in the process.. There has never in boxing history before or after that fight been destruction shown like what Foreman displayed that night against Joe Frazier yet Foreman never came close to putting Frazier "To Sleep" Frazier after every knock down was back on his feet before the referee could reach the count of 4 which is a testement to Smokin Joe Frazier`s "Granite-Chin" and unbelievable courage as well as `Will-to-Win`...Frazier was stopped on his feet by referee Arthur Mercante after the 6th knock down when Fraziers trainer Yank Durham signaled him to stop the fight as well as TV commentator Howard Cossell and Archie Moore in Foremans corner both screaming for it to be halted.. Foreman could not put Frazier too sleep nor could he break Frazier`s fighting spirit, yet throughout Foremans career he was able to `one-punch KO` almost every other opponent he scored a KO victory over, Ken Norton, Michael Moorer, Gerry Cooney was all counted out and put into `dreamland` by the power of George Foreman but NOT Smokin Joe Frazier who had a chin as hard as a Diamond... To put this fight into perspective i read a little article in the obituary of the 3rd man in the ring that night Hall of Fame referee Arthur Mercante who said, "Frazier “was up and ready to go when I stopped the fight”..... Smokin Joe Frazier - one of the toughest and greatest fighters in boxing history!

Frazier “was up and ready to go when I stopped the fight”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle7102062.ece

[prinzemanspopa]

Nowhere in my post did I glorify frazier.I've never said foreman was the hardest puncher of all time either.


The last time that a world class heavyweight was destroyed and dropped numerous times in just two rounds was just seven years ago.And that man in now regarded as having a glass jaw.

Frazier didn't have a glass jaw.

Getting dropped six times in two rounds,mostly by glancing shots and almost a dozen times in just thirty seven fights and eight times against the only puncher that he would ever face is a glass jaw.

frazier wasn't stopped on cuts,he was stopped on his refusal to go out on his shield like a true warrior.

The fact that he would spend an entire career avoiding virtually every ranked puncher suggests that neither "smokey" nor his team fancied his chances with a real puncher.


His chin rates among the very worst of any world champion in any weight class.

[frankenfrank]

Nowhere in my post did I glorify frazier.I've never said foreman was the hardest puncher of all time either.


The last time that a world class heavyweight was destroyed and dropped numerous times in just two rounds was just seven years ago.And that man in now regarded as having a glass jaw.






Getting dropped six times in two rounds,mostly by glancing shots and almost a dozen times in just thirty seven fights and eight times against the only puncher that he would ever face is a glass jaw.

frazier wasn't stopped on cuts,he was stopped on his refusal to go out on his shield like a true warrior.

The fact that he would spend an entire career avoiding virtually every ranked puncher suggests that neither "smokey" nor his team fancied his chances with a real puncher.


His chin rates among the very worst of any world champion in any weight class.

You have so many champions whom just were not better in this aspect :
Jim Corbett , Joe Louis , Rocky Marciano , Floyd Patterson , Ingemar Johansson , Sony Liston , Ken Norton , Lennox Lewis , Chris Byrd , Wladimir Klitschko .
But Foreman is really a bigger puncher than the ones whom KD'd and stopped these champions , even if he was not the biggest puncher in history.
And you ignored the rest of my post.

[frankenfrank]

And in addition to my previous post :
damn ! , even Foreman himself was KO'd by Ali ( a thing that did not happen to Frazier during 3 full fights against Ali , two of them very long ) and down against Jimmy Young FFS , and Ron Lyle.
You know Frazier would not have gone down against Jimmy Young , at least I hope so.
So does Foreman has a weaker jaw than Frazier's glass Jaw ?

[frankenfrank]

frazier wasn't stopped on cuts,he was stopped on his refusal to go out on his shield like a true warrior.

What do you mean by that ?