Would Frazier have beaten Ali the 2nd time if Foreman never happened?

[Joeyzagz]

There were two things at work during Ali-Frazier II.

1. Ali was thoroughly embarrassed by how easily Foreman handled Frazier and was determined not to be shown up by the skill-less amateur. Below you can see the absolute disgust on his face as he is forced to call the Frazier-Foreman fight. If I was alive back then I wouldve put money on Ali just off the strength of this segment alone:



2. Fraziers aura of invincibility was gone and I think he lost a lot confidence after the Foreman loss. Frazier at that time had defeated the man that most thought couldnt be beaten. Rocky Marciano died with the image of an undefeated Ali being proclaimed as the greatest boxer ever. And then Frazier comes in like a hero and finally knocks the ****y, brash Ali down to size.

Then all of that prestige Frazier built up, evaporated in under 10 minutes when he faced George. How can anyone say that Frazier was the same man after that fight?


So my question is, do you think Frazier wouldve beaten Ali in the rematch if Foreman never existed?

[boxing boy]

Yes,Ali would have beat Frazier the 2nd fight if Foreman never happened.

Ali wanted "revenge" badly from his first fight with Joe Frazier.

Ali did not have time to get ready for Frazier the first time,and didn't have his legs,and his reflexes looked slow.

Muhammad Ali had not fought for 3 1/2 years and was way out of shape.He only had 6 weeks to get ready for Quarry,and got lucky that he cut Quarry in the 3rd round or he might have got beat.Muhammad Ali said the same thing.He said he was "shocked" at how tired he was after only 3 rounds,and thinks he would have lost if the fight had gone 10-15 rounds!

Ali looked terrible in his next fight with Oscar Bonevena.He couldn't move and dance like he wanted to,like he did 4 years ago.His reflexes looked slow and his timing and punching accuracy were way off.He had no rythm.It was a close hard fought fight,until Ali stopped him in the 15th round.

Ali only had 3 months to get ready for a Prime Smokin' Joe Frazier after his dismall performance against Oscar Bonevena.Ali kept telling Angelo Dundee that he needed 2 more tune-up fights before fighting Joe Frazier.But Ali could not take a chance and fight more tune-up fights because the Supreme Court said that there decision on Ali's appeal on his conviction for avoiding the draft was coming up anyday!! So Ali did not get 2 more tune-up fights before fighting Frazier that he said he wanted and needed.Ali didn't have time to get ready for a Prime Smokin' Joe Frazier.

His legs only enabled him to dance 2 rounds in the first fight.Like i said,he didn't have time to get ready.He couldn't get his legs back that fast after a 3 1/2 year lay-off.His feflexes looked slow,and he couldn't avoid getting way from punches that were hitting him.He didn't have time to get back his stamina as well.He said that he was very tired after only 6 rounds!!

But before the 2nd fight he had plenty of time to get ready and get back his legs.He was fighting very often and keeping in good shape after the 1st fight.He said in the 2nd Quarry fight was the first time he felt like he had his stamina,reflexes,speed,rythm,and legs back since the 3 1/2 year lay-off.

So the "revenge" factor was a big reason he would have beat Frazier the 2nd time even if Foreman never happened.The other reason is he had time to get ready for the 2nd fight and he had his legs back to dance 12 rounds!

[NChristo]

But boxing boy he's also saying that A LOT was taken out of Frazier in the Foreman fight, you're just going off of what happened to Ali and forgetting about the confidence loss and such from Frazier what Soir mentioned.

I say it's similar to the 1st fight.

[boxing boy]

But boxing boy he's also saying that A LOT was taken out of Frazier in the Foreman fight, you're just going off of what happened to Ali and forgetting about the confidence loss and such from Frazier what Soir mentioned.

I say it's similar to the 1st fight.

I wouldn't say George took alot out of Frazier.I would argue that Ali took more out of Frazier in there 1st fight. Why?

George just blew out Frazier,where Joe took punishment for 15 rounds against Muhammad Ali.He went to the hospital for 6 weeks after his fight with Ali!!

What about the "revenge" factor? Ali badly wanted revenge from there 1st fight.

Frazier was never the same after his 1st fight with Muhammad Ali.This is the common belief among boxing experts,trainers,boxing writers,and boxing fans.

I don't think Frazier lost any confidence after the Foreman fight.Joe just thought he had an off night.That and he underestimated George Foreman.He wasn't conditioned near his peak form.Remember,back then Frazier was the huge favorite,and only a hand full of boxing writers picked Big George.Frazier just figured he had an off night and in a rematch he would train much harder and destroy George Foreman.He was still very confident.

There is a big difference of taking punishment for 15 rounds,and getting blown out early.Muhammad Ali hit Joe Frazier over 300 times in there 1st fight!

PLUS Muhammad Ali had time to get ready for the 2nd fight.He had his legs back to dance 12 rounds! He had his speed,reflexes,rythm,and stamina back.

[frankenfrank]

Answering based on my initial thought upon reading the title alone :
Frazier was beating Ali in the 3rd fight despite Foreman , so I think the difference lays in the different lengths of the third and second fights , Ali could outpoint Frazier along 12 rounds , but would get tortured too much even for himself trying to last 15 with Frazier.
Weird he stopped Bonavena so late in the 15th , and could not hurt Frazier early like Bonavena , Quarry and Foreman and maybe others were able to do.
So I think it doesn't have much to do with Foreman.

[Sugarj]

The Ali of fight 2 beats the Frazier of fight 1 over 12 rounds!

Remember, the Ali of fight 1 was even or a round up after 12 rounds of their first fight regardless. Frazier's excellent rounds 13 and 15 were crucial in the scoring for fight 1.

So yes, even without Frazier's loss to Foreman, Ali was going to win the second fight over the reduced distance. PLUS, Ali was better in 1974 than in 1971. His legs were better and he had Frazier's work in close negated with his insessant holding round the back of the head.

If this fight was over the 15 round distance we would have likely seen another close one, because Ali wouldn't have attempted to dance every round over the 15 round distance.

[frankenfrank]

But boxing boy he's also saying that A LOT was taken out of Frazier in the Foreman fight, you're just going off of what happened to Ali and forgetting about the confidence loss and such from Frazier what Soir mentioned.

I say it's similar to the 1st fight.

I don't think a confidence loss was a factor at all , as Frazier already beat Ali , after a 15 rounds distance .

[boxing boy]

I don't think a confidence loss was a factor at all , as Frazier already beat Ali , after a 15 rounds distance .

BINGO......Read my posts for more about this.

Thank you

[GJC]

Some good posts here. Got a few jumbled thoughts on this

Foreman was always a stylistic nightmare for Frazier so you could isolate those fights.

Whilst an unbeaten record builds an invisiblity and also having seen a fighter lose must boost your confidence and diminish theirs.

Think Frazier and his style of fighting was always going to burn shorter than most so even without the Foreman fight whilst he wasn't shot by Ali 2 he certainly wasn't or wouldn't be the force he was.

12 rounds would never favour Frazier as he always took 4 or 5 rounds to warm up.

Ali also did not fight well in the first and Frazier did not fight well in the second whatever the ins and outs you always have to factor in that the fighter might not be "on" that night.

[carlos slim]

the 1st msg fight hurt fraziers career more than foreman did!! he was in hospital for a week...