Lennox Lewis Or Sonny Liston?

[General Zod]

i have produced sources and links to verify my case.. can you do the same? or is it all just your opinion?

I have proved everything you said was wrong with sources. All you have is a vid from a brain damaged guy, who went to prison for beating his wife and kidnapping his wife and kids.

[sonnyboyx2]

First off nice thread and good discussions going on here.


Sonny i'm afraid we both disagree here and are not going to change each others mind, but I respect your knowledge and also like you I followed big Lens career closely and went to several of his fights. I wasn't a fan at first just curious but after seeing him live for the 4th time against Ruddock he started to convince me.

Forget who earlier in the thread made a reference to the two very different types of prime for Lewis. His athletic prime when he fought Ruddock and his technical prime came much later after being with steward. It's something i've made reference to in the past when talking about Lewis and his prime which one was it. Shame Lewis never had steward from the start can you imagine how good a Lewis who fought Ruddock would of been if he was as technically brilliant as he was later in his career. You could say the same about any boxer George Foreman for instance. I had to comment on this as i've never seen anyone else mention this.


Back to Sonny, I feel the same as Jab and that stepping aside made more sense financially and no disrespect to other fighters out there but Lennox was far more intelligent than most. He knew what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it and make the most money possible. And before you say it no it was not for as little as risk as possible.

I believe their to be two myths about Lennox Lewis, one is he ducked fighters and the other is he had a glass jaw. Now as I said earlier I respect you and you are definitely an intelligent young man so why does someone with your intelligence actually make such a big thing about him being the only heavyweight champion to be stripped of all his belts and make out like it's a bad thing.

I think as much as everyone disagrees about one thing or another surely every boxing fan must be in agreement at what a joke all of the organizations are and how rankings and no.1 spots are all manipulated to suit certain people get richer is a joke. Boxing needs a worldwide commitee running it, one organization and one title. Nearly ever major sport in the world is run this way but not boxing.

So you can say he was stripped, here are links proving he ducked this fighter or that fighter and he was a coward but it don't hold no water with me.

We can argue all bloody day about he never fought John Ruiz, Michael Moorer, Rid**** Bowe, Buster Douglas, Corrie Sanders, Colonel Sanders and Ronald 'fucking' McDonald and apply the same logic to any other fighter out there. You are never going to be able to fight everybody and whether it's another champion or just a rated contender that you never fought someone is always going to point out that they ducked them.

All you can do is look at what they did do and who did they actually fight and make your conclusions from that. Also how were the fighters he fought actually perceived at the time he fought them is another good indication.

Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, McCall, Golota, Briggs, Mavrovic, Holyfield, Grant, Botha, Tua, Rahman, Tyson, Klitschko.

Now is that a resume of a coward, a fighter who was afraid to fight Ruiz or of a champion who was willing to fight the best whenever he could. To me that is a great champions resume and how many champions have fought and beat such a talented amount of fighters in title fights. Notice how many big dangerous punchers he faced and took their punches.

I'm sorry my friend but you are going to have to do a lot more to convince me that Lewis is a coward and ducked people.

Ruddock - Damaged Goods after 2 brutal beatings from Tyson.
Tucker - `Junkie` who was a shell of the former champion.
Bruno - Gave Lewis a boxing lesson
Morrison - Steroid Freak suffering with HIV
Mercer - Robbed of Decision & beaten out of sight by Holmes.
McCall - Poleaxed Lewis & only days out of rehab for return fight.
Golota - Sedated in dressing room after taking Panic Attack
Briggs - nothing more than a glass-chinned journeyman
Mavrovic - very limited typical upright european
Holyfield - years past best yet robbed in 2nd fight with Lewis
Grant - Exposed by Golota as not worthy of title fight
Botha - Steroid freak not worthy of Title fight
Tua - Fattest man in history to fight for the title
Rahman - Journeyman unworthy of title fight yet KOs Lewis
Tyson - 13yrs past his best & shell of former ATG
Klitschko - Late subsitute who was `Robbed`

The majority of those above should never ever have been fighting for the title, they was all hand-picked for harmlessness by Lewis so as to avoid Holmes, Foreman, Hide, Sanders, Tyson, Witherspoon, Ruiz, Byrd, Holyfield, Bowe, Wlad Klitschko, Moorer.... Lewis chose to fight 6 white-skinned fighters rather than fight the black americans who was at the top of their game and belt holders.

Lewis was stripped of every version of the undisputed title yet it is down-played by his fanboys and the blame put onto everyone other than Lewis.. evidence is ignored when it is supplied to prove valid points, yet no evidence ever emerges from Lewis fanboys and they have the face to claim that Lewis could beat ATGs like Sonny Liston & Muhammad Ali yet ignore that fact that Lewis could barely beat Frank Bruno... excuses are always used for Lewis and those excuses are `Carved in Stone` for Lewis only..
1/. He was not focused
2/. it was a lucky punch
3/. the referee counted to quickly
4/. Lewis was in a movie
5/. Lewis would be too big for him
6/. every one avoided Lewis
7/. Bowe dumped the belt coz he was scared of Lewis but Lewis dumped his belt coz he knew he could beat Ruiz & Byrd & Vitali
8/. pre Stewart Lewis was not focused

You never hear people saying "Sonny Liston was not focused for Muhammad Ali (1) and it was a lucky punch in their rematch or the referee should have let him carry on

Lennox Lewis is a Canadian/British thing.. so its understandable

[GJC]

I think is stay at the "top" was more do to Don King's string pulling than anything else. Poet

Do you remember King pushing Ruiz up to number one contender out of pretty much no where, or is it my fading memory?

[GJC]

Klitschko - Late subsitute who was `Robbed`

Think we did all the others but you keep adding people Sonny lol.
"Robbed"????? You wouldn't have stopped the fight?

[General Zod]

Ruddock - Damaged Goods after 2 brutal beatings from Tyson.

No one knew that ruddock was damaged goods untill after they watched his career post Tyson

Tucker - `Junkie` who was a shell of the former champion.

True Tuckers drugs problems were starting to get out of hand at that point

Bruno - Gave Lewis a boxing lesson

Bruno got koed I believe

Morrison - Steroid Freak suffering with HIV

No one knows the exact time he got HIV, so its irrelevant. Didnt Roy Jones test positive for steroids as well?

Mercer - Robbed of Decision & beaten out of sight by Holmes.

I thought it should of been scored a draw

McCall - Poleaxed Lewis & only days out of rehab for return fight.

Is this the same McCall who always held his own in sparring matches with prime Tyson and dropped him before the Buster Douglas fight? As for the drug rehab comment you blame Lewis for that as well, if MCCall isnt in a fit condition that his own fault

Golota - Sedated in dressing room after taking Panic Attack

And this is Lewis fault?

Holyfield - years past best yet robbed in 2nd fight with Lewis

You hate Lewis so much that you cant even admit that Holyfield lost the first fight. This is also the same Holyfield that beat Tyson*2

Rahman - Journeyman unworthy of title fight yet KOs Lewis

I wonder what happened in the rematch.
Didnt Pacman get koed by binmen early in his career? What about Jones Tarver II? Johnson? You hate on Lewis but praise Jones and Pacman right

Tyson - 13yrs past his best & shell of former ATG

Tyson isnt a ATG

Klitschko - Late subsitute who was `Robbed`

lmao, if his D was better he wouldnt of got hit so much

The majority of those above should never ever have been fighting for the title, they was all hand-picked for harmlessness by Lewis so as to avoid Holmes, Foreman, Hide, Sanders, Tyson, Witherspoon, Ruiz, Byrd, Holyfield, Bowe, Wlad Klitschko, Moorer

You dont know what you are even talking about. Ruiz, isnt he the guy who lost to two mw and got koed by a cw? Byrd, wasnt he blasted out by Ike, Wlad and a LHW? Holmes and what did he ever do to deserve a shot? Hide=binman, Witherspoon=problems with King, Moorer koed by a 50 year old

Lewis was stripped of every version of the undisputed title yet it is down-played by his fanboys and the blame put onto everyone other than Lewis.. evidence is ignored when it is supplied to prove valid points

Lewis was scared of Ruiz and Byrd wasnt he?

yet no evidence ever emerges from Lewis fanboys and they have the face to claim that Lewis could beat ATGs like Sonny Liston & Muhammad Ali yet ignore that fact that Lewis could barely beat Frank Bruno

Could of been worse and got beat up by the legendary Buster Douglas

Lennox Lewis is a Canadian/British thing.. so its understandable

Your not really from England are you? Let me guess you are another biased American fight fan right?

[sonnyboyx2]

Think we did all the others but you keep adding people Sonny lol.
"Robbed"????? You wouldn't have stopped the fight?

Vitali was robbed - he was cut by a deliberate headbutt so when the fight was stopped they should have went to the scorecards which all had Vitali well ahead... what is your take on the fight GJC ?

[General Zod]

Vitali was robbed - he was cut by a deliberate headbutt so when the fight was stopped they should have went to the scorecards which all had Vitali well ahead... what is your take on the fight GJC ?

And your proof is?

[StarshipTrooper]

Do you remember King pushing Ruiz up to number one contender out of pretty much no where, or is it my fading memory?

More than once in fact. The fact that he was King's boy looms large in some of the dubious decisions he got as well.

Poet

[sonnyboyx2]

No one knew that ruddock was damaged goods untill after they watched his career post Tyson

True Tuckers drugs problems were starting to get out of hand at that point

Bruno got koed I believe

No one knows the exact time he got HIV, so its irrelevant. Didnt Roy Jones test positive for steroids as well?

I thought it should of been scored a draw

Is this the same McCall who always held his own in sparring matches with prime Tyson and dropped him before the Buster Douglas fight? As for the drug rehab comment you blame Lewis for that as well, if MCCall isnt in a fit condition that his own fault

And this is Lewis fault?

You hate Lewis so much that you cant even admit that Holyfield lost the first fight. This is also the same Holyfield that beat Tyson*2

I wonder what happened in the rematch.
Didnt Pacman get koed by binmen early in his career? What about Jones Tarver II? Johnson? You hate on Lewis but praise Jones and Pacman right

Tyson isnt a ATG

lmao, if his D was better he wouldnt of got hit so much

You dont know what you are even talking about. Ruiz, isnt he the guy who lost to two mw and got koed by a cw? Byrd, wasnt he blasted out by Ike, Wlad and a LHW? Holmes and what did he ever do to deserve a shot? Hide=binman, Witherspoon=problems with King, Moorer koed by a 50 year old

Lewis was scared of Ruiz and Byrd wasnt he?

Could of been worse and got beat up by the legendary Buster Douglas

Your not really from England are you? Let me guess you are another biased American fight fan right?

Just like i expected of you, not a single shread of evidence to prove me wrong, not a link or a source nothing at all..

Ruddock had his jaw, cheeckbone & eye-socket smashed against Tyson and he was also a one-handed fighter who had been KOd by a journeyman

Tucker it was well documented about his drug problems and he looked a shadow of the fighter who fought Douglas & Tyson years earlier.

Bruno got stopped by Lewis after he had given Lewis a lesson in jabbing and boxing skills, Lewis was well behind on all scorecards when he landed what can only be described as a `Lucky punch`which tagged Bruno on the chin... Bruno was a Class C fighter yet Lewis was no better than him

Morrisons post-fight blood test showed he was HIV so its fair to say that he was knowhere near in peak condition, also Morrison himself claimes he contacted HIV from steroid abuse

Mercer v Lewis you say was a draw yet if thats the case how could you envisage Lewis beating Tyson at that time if he could not get past Mercer in your own opinion

i dont hate Lewis.. i thought he was unlucky to only come away with a draw in his first fight with Holyfield and i thought as most ringside commentators thought that Holyfield was robbed in their 2nd fight, even the british judge Larry O`Connel scored their 1st fight a draw and he sticks by his decision to this day.

yes the same McCall who poleaxed Lewis is the same one who was nothing more than a sparring partner for Mike Tyson, if you claim that he dropped Tyson in sparring then i take your word that its correct just like John Ruiz dropped Lewis in sparring in 94 in London.. The Lewis camp knew all about John Ruiz and his grappling-hook style after using him as chief sparring partner in 1994 for the McCall fight, they got rid of Ruiz services after 3 days because they could not handle his style, when 5yrs later Ruiz had fought his way to be No1 contender for Lewis WBA title Lewis rufused to fight the man he knew he could not handle.

Rahman was KOd in the rematch with Lewis, but that was nothing new because Rahman had been poleaxed previously by Oleg Maskaev getting knocked right out of the ring and laying unconscous for 10 minutes or more, Maskaev completed the double over Rahman a couple of years later when he poleaxed him in similar fashion to Lewis did yet Maskaev was a not a big puncher.

McCall was in a drug-rehab when he signed to fight Lewis in their return fight, he remained in the rehab up unto 3 days before fight night and entered the ring without a single days training behind him, he was not in a fit state to be in a boxing ring never mind fight for a world title yet Lewis fanboys count this as one of Lewis greatest victories and claim he avenged his loss to McCall... Lewis was so terrified of McCall that he would not go in for the kill even though McCall was holding his arms by his side.

Tyson you claim is not an All Time Great... laughable!
if Tyson aint an ATG then Lewis aint a Top 20 ATG heavyweight because Tyson will always be rated far higher & greater than ever Lewis will be

Holmes beat Mercer for the WBO title beating him far easier than Lewis could beat him.

i notice how you have repeatedly mentioned Roy Jones in your comments even tho he has nothing to do with the topic and after checking your list of threads you started more than half of them are to try discredit Roy Jones..you cannot be taken seriously.

post up some links to back up your claims

[GJC]

Vitali was robbed - he was cut by a deliberate headbutt so when the fight was stopped they should have went to the scorecards which all had Vitali well ahead... what is your take on the fight GJC ?

Sonny I don't think even the biggest Klit fans are clinging on to the headbutt scenario.
Did used to read that a lot and remember watching the fight a while back with that in mind, the cut was caused by a punch. Without looking again and relying on memory a right in the second I believe.
Sonny as you know I don't agree with you re Lewis and we have done this argument more than once so we'll agree to differ.
But I will say I think you are in danger of totally obscuring your argument by never giving Lewis credit for any win.
I think your arguments might carry some weight if you put your hands up and said yes so and so was a good win but....?