Lennox Lewis Or Sonny Liston?

[Shazam!]

It's clearly apparent to me (and this also gets the same acknowledgement from all the people I've ever met who have been following boxing for a lot longer than I have)...that Lewis took on (let alone ducked) and KO'ed one of the biggest punching set of heavyweights in the modern game. It's as simple as that.

If you're chicken ****, you don't get in the ring with punchers like Tua, Briggs, Morrison, Golota etc because these guys come to fight and they can punch. There's only one person on these entire boards (and for that matter any boxing board you care to visit on the Internet) who tries to downplay every single victory Lennox Lewis has had...and we all know who that person is.

A key point is that, even if you could make these excuses for everyone Lewis ever fought...someone please tell me how in the hell Lewis is supposed to PREDICT every fighter who is apparently gonna suddenly reveal themselves to be 'shot' only on the night he fights them, or is gonna have a mental episode on the night of the fight? Is Lennox supposed to be Nostradamus here? *laugh*

If every fighter Lewis ever fought was 'shot', 'overweight', 'a druggy', 'a mental patient' etc etc etc etc etc then don't you think the bookmakers, whose job it is to know more about this stuff than anyone would have reflected this in the odds for the fight?

But they didn't?

Precisely.

Loooads of people predicated wins for Holyfield, Tua, Ruddock and yes, even Tyson...which didn't come off. Like it or not (usually not). People just don't like coming away with egg on their face, especially when they've an emotional investment in a fighter. Unfortunately, Lewis fans don't have that problem...because he beat everyone he ever fought.

...So to come up with all the above excuses time and time again, plus whatever other ridiculous argument you can think of to counter every fighter Lewis ever fought like 'he had a splinter in his toe', 'somebody put something in his drink', just ventures on the ridiculous. The vast majority of reasonable people who try to push an argument would eventually stop short once they realise they've gone beyond reason and into the realm of sheer ridiculousness and coincidence over and over again.

Fortunately, facts are facts. The truth always comes to the surface in the end. Lewis got in there with the biggest and baddest, most dangerous and most reputed punchers of his time and he spectacularly KO'ed virtually all of them with his big right hand.

And here's the proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWPF8...eature=related Enjoy ;-)

It is for these reasons that Lennox Lewis's legacy rightfully continues to grow, just like that of Larry Holmes has done........in the boxing world.

[sonnyboyx2]

It's clearly apparent to me (and this also gets the same acknowledgement from all the people I've ever met who have been following boxing for a lot longer than I have)...that Lewis took on (let alone ducked) and KO'ed one of the biggest punching set of heavyweights in the modern game. It's as simple as that.

If you're chicken ****, you don't get in the ring with punchers like Tua, Briggs, Morrison, Golota etc because these guys come to fight and they can punch. There's only one person on these entire boards (and for that matter any boxing board you care to visit on the Internet) who tries to downplay every single victory Lennox Lewis has had...and we all know who that person is.

Now, a key point is that, even if you could make these excuses for everyone Lewis every fought...someone please tell me how in the hell Lewis is supposed to PREDICT every fighter who is apparently gonna suddenly reveal themselves to be 'shot' only on the night he fights them, or is gonna have a mental episode on the night of the fight? Is Lennox supposed to be Nostradamus here? *laugh*

If every fighter Lewis ever fought was 'shot', 'overweight', 'a druggy', 'a mental patient' etc etc etc etc etc then don't you think the BOOKMAKERS, whose job it is to know more about this stuff than ANYONE would have reflected this in the odds for the fight?

Precisely.

...So to come up with all the above, plus whatever other ridiculous argument you can think of to counter every fighter Lewis ever fought like 'he had a splinter in his toe', 'somebody ****ed his drink', just ventures on the ridiculous. The vast majority of reasonable people who try to push an argument would eventually stop short once they realise they've gone beyond reason and into the realm of sheer ridiculousness and coincidence over and over again.

Unfortunately, facts are facts. Lewis got in there with the biggest and baddest, most dangerous and most reputed punchers of his time and he spectacularly KO'ed virtually all of them with his big right hand.

And here's the proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWPF8...eature=related Enjoy ;-)

Lewis was massive odds-on (1/12 upwards) to beat everyone of his opponents, the shortest odds for any of his opponents was David Tua who was 3/1... yes 1/12 vs 3/1 in a two dog race tells the whole story.

Briggs, Golota you call punchers?...

it was well publicized before his fights that Tucker & McCall was hard drug abusers, McCall even signed the fight contract while in a drug-rehab and was only released a couple of days before fight-night.

Lewis knew all about Golota`s history of `panic-attacks` and knew on fight-night that Golota had suffered a panic-attack when the Golota camp asked for a 45 minute delay after he was sedated by the doctors in his dressing room, the Lewis camp refused his request and Lewis jumped on him from the opening bell.

everyone i have ever discussed boxing with and in particular Lennox Lewis are of the same opinion as myself in that he was an opportunist who took zero risks and avoided all the top fighters who was at the top of their game.

Lewis never in his entire career fought any opponent who was at the top of his game.

Tommy Morrison had been exposed when getting knocked out in the opening round against one Michael Bent, Lewis knew that Morrison was a steroid abuser just like every boxing fan knew he was a steroid abuser.. you can`t put muscle on your chin by using steroids`

you claimed and said "Lewis got in with the biggest and baddest, most dangerous and most reputed punchers of his time ".... which is bull****

The biggest baddest most dangerous punchers of Lennox Lewis time was all avoided by Lewis .. Foreman, Moorer, Witherspoon, Bowe, Sanders, Tyson, Holyfield, Bert Cooper, Wlad Klitschko.. not the C class bums who was at the tail-end of their careers which Lewis chose to fight

[CarlosG815]

It's clearly apparent to me (and this also gets the same acknowledgement from all the people I've ever met who have been following boxing for a lot longer than I have)...that Lewis took on (let alone ducked) and KO'ed one of the biggest punching set of heavyweights in the modern game. It's as simple as that.

If you're chicken ****, you don't get in the ring with punchers like Tua, Briggs, Morrison, Golota etc because these guys come to fight and they can punch. There's only one person on these entire boards (and for that matter any boxing board you care to visit on the Internet) who tries to downplay every single victory Lennox Lewis has had...and we all know who that person is.

A key point is that, even if you could make these excuses for everyone Lewis ever fought...someone please tell me how in the hell Lewis is supposed to PREDICT every fighter who is apparently gonna suddenly reveal themselves to be 'shot' only on the night he fights them, or is gonna have a mental episode on the night of the fight? Is Lennox supposed to be Nostradamus here? *laugh*

If every fighter Lewis ever fought was 'shot', 'overweight', 'a druggy', 'a mental patient' etc etc etc etc etc then don't you think the bookmakers, whose job it is to know more about this stuff than anyone would have reflected this in the odds for the fight?

But they didn't?

Precisely.

Loooads of people predicated wins for Holyfield, Tua, Ruddock and yes, even Tyson...which didn't come off. Like it or not (usually not). People just don't like coming away with egg on their face, especially when they've an emotional investment in a fighter. Unfortunately, Lewis fans don't have that problem...because he beat everyone he ever fought.

...So to come up with all the above excuses time and time again, plus whatever other ridiculous argument you can think of to counter every fighter Lewis ever fought like 'he had a splinter in his toe', 'somebody put something in his drink', just ventures on the ridiculous. The vast majority of reasonable people who try to push an argument would eventually stop short once they realise they've gone beyond reason and into the realm of sheer ridiculousness and coincidence over and over again.

Fortunately, facts are facts. The truth always comes to the surface in the end. Lewis got in there with the biggest and baddest, most dangerous and most reputed punchers of his time and he spectacularly KO'ed virtually all of them with his big right hand.

And here's the proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWPF8...eature=related Enjoy ;-)

It is for these reasons that Lennox Lewis's legacy rightfully continues to grow, just like that of Larry Holmes has done........in the boxing world.

You are in denial.

[boxing boy]

Sonny Liston had the best left jab in heavyweight history imo.

And Liston's reach was as long as Lewis's reach was.

Liston also had one of the best chin's in heavyweight history.The only time he was really KO'd was when he was over 40 years old.The 2nd fight with Ali was a fixed fight.The 1st fight he was not KO'd,he quit because Ali was showing him up like SRL did to Roberto Duran.Liston also quit because he had an injured shoulder.It's not like Ali was hurting him.I believe Liston could take Lewis's best shots.Watch Liston's fights against Cleveland "big cat" Williams,who had a murderous left hook.

So

Continued from above......


Liston cleaned out the heavyweight division,a good heavyweight division.

In 1958 he slaughtered a rugged Wayne Baetha in 69 seconds,knocking out seven of Baetha's teeth.

In 1959 he destroyed big Mike DeJohn,boosted as the worlds hardest punching white heavyweight,in six rounds.

One by one he smashed the best contenders aside and moved towards the title.Liston twice knocked out Cleveland Williams,in three and two rounds,both very violent battles.Big Cuban Nino Valdes,formerly a number one contender,was destroyed in 3 rounds.Roy Harris was crushed in one round.Zora Folley,one of the all-time best heavyweight stylists,was clobbered in 3 rounds.He easily beat Eddie Machen,a magnificently talented fighter.

By the time Liston had met Patterson he had been undisputed number one contender for over 2 years and was probably past his best.

Liston's left jab was so powerfull that he acually knocked out a tooth with it against one of his opponents!!

I believe Sonny Liston would have been the 3rd fighter to KO Lennix Lewis.

[Panthershock]

As for the matchup, I'll go with Liston. I think his long reach and jab would pose problems for Lewis, he couldnt just stay outside and work the jab. Lewis' arsenal all depends on establishing his jab, especially if he's facing a top flight opponent. Mercer gave Lewis trouble with his jab, and its not close to Listons. That being said, I'm not completely sold Liston would win, hard fight to call.

Now on to the debate about Lewis going on here. Both sides have some good points, the strongest asset for Lewis is that he beat everyone he fought, impressive regardless of circumstances. In the early mid 90's I dont think you can really lay the blame on Lewis. At the time Holyfield Bowe and Tyson are much bigger names, so it was in the other fighters interests financially not to fight Lewis, as well as being in the interests of the boxing fans. People wanted to see a Bowe Holyfield rematch, and finally get to see Tyson-Holyfield. This combined with his loss to McCall kept him on the outside. He should have taken the Tyson fight if it really was on the table, other than that I dont blame him. The way the chips fell Lewis didn't fight the big names (Holyfield, Tyson) until they were well past it. The end of Lewis' career is what sours me. He owed Vitali a rematch, I believe the cut was actually caused by the duct tape on Lewis' glove, it was a glancing blow. He tries to get a big money fight with Jones Jr, it doesnt work out and he retires after leaving Vitali hanging for a year.

[sonnyboyx2]

As for the matchup, I'll go with Liston. I think his long reach and jab would pose problems for Lewis, he couldnt just stay outside and work the jab. Lewis' arsenal all depends on establishing his jab, especially if he's facing a top flight opponent. Mercer gave Lewis trouble with his jab, and its not close to Listons. That being said, I'm not completely sold Liston would win, hard fight to call.

Now on to the debate about Lewis going on here. Both sides have some good points, the strongest asset for Lewis is that he beat everyone he fought, impressive regardless of circumstances. In the early mid 90's I dont think you can really lay the blame on Lewis. At the time Holyfield Bowe and Tyson are much bigger names, so it was in the other fighters interests financially not to fight Lewis, as well as being in the interests of the boxing fans. People wanted to see a Bowe Holyfield rematch, and finally get to see Tyson-Holyfield. This combined with his loss to McCall kept him on the outside. He should have taken the Tyson fight if it really was on the table, other than that I dont blame him. The way the chips fell Lewis didn't fight the big names (Holyfield, Tyson) until they were well past it. The end of Lewis' career is what sours me. He owed Vitali a rematch, I believe the cut was actually caused by the duct tape on Lewis' glove, it was a glancing blow. He tries to get a big money fight with Jones Jr, it doesnt work out and he retires after leaving Vitali hanging for a year.

correct in what you say

[C.Y.]

Lewis seems to get more attention and acclaim, because he fought more recently perhaps and there has always been a dark cloud surrounding liston's career with the mafia and all the other stuff..

but in regards to a head to head match up, i think Liston ko's Lewis

[BennyST]

You never hear people saying "Sonny Liston was not focused for Muhammad Ali (1) and it was a lucky punch in their rematch or the referee should have let him carry on

Well, admittedly, unlike Liston Lewis actually beat both guys he lost to in the rematches. If Liston had beaten Ali in the rematch instead of getting beaten even worse in the weird fight, then people might have said he was "unfocused", or it was a "lucky punch" etc.

But, the fact is that in each rematch Lewis dominated and knocked the opponent out making it look as if the first fight was simply Lewis losing through his own means instead of the opponent winning because they were better.

It's like Williams/Quintana. He won the first fight, but didn't look as good as his usual self, and showed it was so by winning dramatically in the rematch without any trouble and looking like his old self.

Surely you can understand that?

Anyway, I would have to go with Lewis. I just think he was more dominant over a longer period, and while his era may not have been as good (though again, that is debatable for some), he beat everyone he faced and finished as champion by beating the young, up and coming next big thing in his only KO loss, and who himself would go on to dominate the next era.

That's pretty impressive no matter which way you swing it. Fine Sonny, before you lose, while you may not think he's the best ever, you have to admit that he is one of the best HW champs ever. Not the best, maybe not in the top three, five and maybe not even in the top ten for you, but I think you'd be very hard pressed to honestly, and factually, put ten better HW champions before him.

[BennyST]

The end of Lewis' career is what sours me. He owed Vitali a rematch, I believe the cut was actually caused by the duct tape on Lewis' glove, it was a glancing blow.

While I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying elsewhere, this one is a little over the top. You do not have your entire eye socket completely mangled by some glancing duct tape. He had the eye pasted over and over to the point of TKO and won.

He also didn't owe some up and coming champion anything. He was at the end of his career, in bad shape, didn't have any motivation to fight on as he had achieved everything he had though and more and he still stoppedthe guy. What reason did he have to owe him something? Because the fight was close? He stopped him! Old, veteran champion at the end vs young, up and coming champion and the young guy gets stopped by horrible face mutilation. Old guy wins big and ends his career on a great, amazing note!

Or did you just want to see him come back to lose? Maybe he thought he would lose. Who cares? He stopped him in the only fight that matters because it was the only fight they had. Do you realise that he probably just didn't care? If you're at the end, and he was definitely at the end after the shape he came in like against Klitschko, you're eventually going to lose whether from simply not giving a ****e anymore (and he was obviously at that point) or from just getting too old.

So, why would that guy owe some young fighter he just stopped anything? To just see if he could still get up for a big fight? Or to see how good the young guy was or was it just to give the young guy a chance to beat him because he couldn't be bothered with it?

I've never understood the contentious aura that surrounds this fight. Vitali got stopped by a better fighter on that night. It happens. It's called boxing and when you your face smashed open to smithereens and are in jeopardy of going permanently blind from the damage, you lose! Now for a guy that had obviously been near the end of his career for while, what better way to go out? Why not leave while you are on top, but also with the understanding that you will not stay on top because you are obviously losing it. There is no better time. Comparatively, he looked like **** in that fight. Fat, untrained, unmotivated and he still won what turned out to be one of the best victories of his career as the young guy went on to become a great champ himself. It's perfect and yet everyone always has a good, boring whinge about it.

"He owed him a fight!"

Why? Because he lost by TKO?

That doesn't really work for me. Usually when you get stopped, you are not owed a damn thing but have to rework your way back up another way. He did and that's that.

[sonnyboyx2]

Well, admittedly, unlike Liston Lewis actually beat both guys he lost to in the rematches. If Liston had beaten Ali in the rematch instead of getting beaten even worse in the weird fight, then people might have said he was "unfocused", or it was a "lucky punch" etc.

But, the fact is that in each rematch Lewis dominated and knocked the opponent out making it look as if the first fight was simply Lewis losing through his own means instead of the opponent winning because they were better.

It's like Williams/Quintana. He won the first fight, but didn't look as good as his usual self, and showed it was so by winning dramatically in the rematch without any trouble and looking like his old self.

Surely you can understand that?

Anyway, I would have to go with Lewis. I just think he was more dominant over a longer period, and while his era may not have been as good (though again, that is debatable for some), he beat everyone he faced and finished as champion by beating the young, up and coming next big thing in his only KO loss, and who himself would go on to dominate the next era.

That's pretty impressive no matter which way you swing it. Fine Sonny, before you lose, while you may not think he's the best ever, you have to admit that he is one of the best HW champs ever. Not the best, maybe not in the top three, five and maybe not even in the top ten for you, but I think you'd be very hard pressed to honestly, and factually, put ten better HW champions before him.

so what you are saying is Liston unlike Lewis could not avenge his two defeats to Cassius Clay like Lewis did with McCall & Rahman... But Cassius Clay was 50 times better than the two bums who poleaxed Lewis, both McCall & Rahman are very mediocre fighters with very little skills or boxing ability whereas Cassius Clay was a "Dancing-Master" with skills second to no one, Liston retired due to a damaged shoulder (similar to Vitali) he sustained his injury trying to land a punch on Clay. Liston punched far harder than both McCall & Rahman he was also a better all round fighter than either of those two he had one of the best jabs in heavyweight history unlike Lewis who was easily out-jabbed by Frank Bruno & Ray Mercer, The Lewis jab was a "PAW" a distraction it was not a lethal weapon like Listons jab.

Lewis 2nd fight with McCall was a complete farce with McCall signing the fight contract when a patient of a Drug-Rehabilitation Centre, McCall was released from the rehab only days before fight night and in no mental or physical shape to be fighting for the world title.. Lewis rematch with Rahman is immaterial because Rahman was known to have a weak chin, he had been poleaxed and knocked out of the ring where he lay unconscious for 5 minutes by Oleg Maskaev with Maskaev repeating the double over Rahman several years later when he poleaxed him again... Rahman is without doubt the very worst undisputed champion in boxing history so if Lewis was to be highly rated then you would expect him to beat Rahman like he did in their rematch because like i said Rahman had been poleaxed previously by a fighter with very limited power compaired to Lennox Lewis... would Sonny Liston beat McCall & Rahman, yes he would murder then..

you claim "Lewis beat everyone he faced" but that aint to difficult if you wont fight the top fighters, Rahman was the WBC No10 ranked fighter when Lewis chose him as an opponent... McCall had been hammered by Buster Douglas and easily beaten by Mike`bounty`Hunter as well as Tony Tucker and was thought of as nothing other than a journeyman/sparring partner.. Lewis should have been fighting the likes of Holmes, Holyfield, Witherspoon, Foreman, Moorer, Tyson, Bowe, Sanders in the 90s not the likes of the tomato cans who he chose to fight which is why you claim he "beat everyone he faced" to which i answer "But he never fought anyone who was good" or who was at the top of their game... Was McCall at the top of his game in the Lewis rematch?
was David Tua weighing 254lbs at the top of his game?
was Holyfield or Tyson at the top of their game?
was Frank Bruno at the top of his game?
was Tony Tucker at the top of his game?
was Tommy Morrison at the top of his game?
was Razor Ruddock at the top of his game?

Sonny Liston would walk right through Lennox Lewis in similar way to how he did to Cleveland Williams, Lewis brings nothing to the fight against a prime Liston and gets butchered within 3rds.