What Does Pacquiao Have To Do, To Surpass Ray Leonard?

[BennyST]

Ray Leonards best career wins was Benitez, Duran (3), Hearns (1) Hagler...

Manny Pacquiaos best career wins are, Marquez (2), Morales (2) Barrera (1) Delahoya.

Now which ever way you want to look at it all these victories are over IBHOF fighters... its no good claiming they should have fought at 126lb or 147lbs etc or that he beat him when he was past it or that most people did not think he won... the fact is that they did win... Manny Pacquiao will be ranked as the greatest fighter in the history of pro boxing if he defeats Floyd Mayweather in the coming months, should that fight not materialize then Pacquiao will still be ranked as one of the very best ATGs to claim otherwise is ridiculous

Hallelujah, praise the Lord!

Although I agree that he is and always will be an ATG, he won't be ranked higher than Leonard and without a win over Mayweather will never be ranked higher than twenty or so. Still an incredible achievement considering the history of the sport and the amount of great fighters.

But hey mate, you stick with those good thoughts you have of him already being the greatest ever. It's good that you're positive about this **** you know? There are too many people that are just bitter about everyone and everything.




PS: Oh yeah, I just thought I'd pull you up since you seem so obsessed with 'facts' as you like to put it. Pac only beat Marquez once, not twice as you claim. See, I also like to look at facts, but I actually stick to them unlike you. It was also you that brought up people who supposedly 'wanted' the fight. It takes two to tango buddy and it takes two to sign a contract, so I'm lost about whatever trip you're on there.

"Roger. Over and out"

[sonnyboyx2]

Hallelujah, praise the Lord!

Although I agree that he is and always will be an ATG, he won't be ranked higher than Leonard and without a win over Mayweather will never be ranked higher than twenty or so. Still an incredible achievement considering the history of the sport and the amount of great fighters.

But hey mate, you stick with those good thoughts you have of him already being the greatest ever. It's good that you're positive about this **** you know? There are too many people that are just bitter about everyone and everything.




PS: Oh yeah, I just thought I'd pull you up since you seem so obsessed with 'facts' as you like to put it. Pac only beat Marquez once, not twice as you claim. See, I also like to look at facts, but I actually stick to them unlike you. It was also you that brought up people who supposedly 'wanted' the fight. It takes two to tango buddy and it takes two to sign a contract, so I'm lost about whatever trip you're on there.

"Roger. Over and out"

when did i say he beat Marquez twice?

Pacquiao is ranked higher than Leonard now going by commentators like Lampley, Stewart & Merchant who rate him in the Henry Armstrong league (Top 3)

As for fighters `wanting the fight`- Pacquiao is the sports No1 P4P fighter & No1 PPV fighter after his string of victories over Cotto, Hatton, Delahoya, Marquez, Morales, Clottey, Barrera.. almost every top fighter from 140 to 160lbs is hoping to get a shot at him due to the mega payday

[The Iron Man]

I'm not sure the opponents are available for him to overtake SRL. But a win over mayweather will rid any questions of his ATG status.

[BennyST]

i only got a quarter the way through this drivel of a reply, it reads as if you are high and talking through a hole in your head... your going on about who promoted the fights when i never mentioned that in my reply to you, then you start to claim that you never said that they was not in the Top 100 or Top 1000 so i siggest you go back and read your posts, you then start to claim that they never fought at 122 or 126 etc etc the facts are that they fought and Pacquiao beat them, you claimed that Pacquiao never beat Marquez yet he did beat Marquez wether you like it or not, then you atart going on about Muhammad Ali & Larry Holmes so i gave up reading from there onwards... you need to dry-out mate, go seek councilling for your addiction

You know what? Just read the last two paragraphs of the post you replied to with this. What is so difficult to understand? Where do I not give him praise? Where is the 'hate'?

when did i say he beat Marquez twice?

Huh? Are you serious? You said it about three different times throughout your posts recently.

Just the last post was this:

"Manny Pacquiaos best career wins are, Marquez (2)"

I'm not sure the opponents are available for him to overtake SRL. But a win over mayweather will rid any questions of his ATG status.

See, what it comes down to is this. Of course he is an ATG. This is all that I have been trying to get across. Now, as some people say, it's not Pac's fault there aren't greater fighters around but that doesn't matter. Leonard fought and beat much greater opposition than Pac and a lot more of them. Like I said in a recent post, if there were four fighters of Mayweather's caliber today and Pac beat them all, he would only equal what Leonard did. As it is he hasn't beat a single guy that comes close to the fighters Leonard beat, and has lost or been knocked out by fighters of much, much, much less caliber so it's not possible for him to surpass that kind of level. Even beating Mayweather will only bring him close, but with all the other stuff (division titles) it may even make him surpass Leonard. Depends though on what plays out for the rest of his career.

What he has done so far is vastly overrated in comparison though at the moment compared to what someone like Leonard has done and who he has beaten.

It's kind of sad, but as many have said before me, there will probably never be another era of boxing so great as that one. When you have four guys as good as Duran, Leonard, Hearns and Hagler all fighting at similar times, dominating their own divisions and then fighting each other and all beating one of the others and losing to one of the others, to say that anything today equals that is simply ****** and ignorant.

We have a great 140 division at the moment. Imagine that but Khan, Pac, Mayweather, Ortiz, Alexander, Bradley etc, all being as good as Mayweather and Pac are and all having dominated the sport in their own way as Pac (although only recently) and Mayweather have. Now imagine them all fighting each other in a massive career long struggle and battle. That's what that era was. People now just can't understand what it was like then. They think Oscar/Maywather was a huge fight or Pac/Maywather is some amazing fight looked forward to around the world. They are but it's smaller than what was happening then.

[feroth]

Uh sorry but Leonard stopped Benitez, Duran n Hearns b4 turning 26! Thats 3 certified first class HOF. Imo Hearns n Benitez are top 25 easy and Duran is top 10 all time EASY...arguably the best fighter since the original Sugar n Leonard beat him at age 24? lol c'mon man, then he beats the best MW ever after being off for 5 ****ing years? He's beat 2 top 25 n 2 top 10 guys imo n rediculous circumstances mind you, never ducked no one n fought about 10 other world champions n great fighters. Manny's only great win so far is Barrera. Morales was done when he beat him in the rematch n he never beat Marquez. Oscar n Cotto weren't the same either but Cotto was still a live dog I'll give him that. If he beats Floyd (or Mosley if he wins) he's definitely an ATG but I still dont see how he can surpass Leonard

[sonnyboyx2]

You know what? Just read the last two paragraphs of the post you replied to with this. What is so difficult to understand? Where do I not give him praise? Where is the 'hate'?



Huh? Are you serious? You said it about three different times throughout your posts recently.

Just the last post was this:

"Manny Pacquiaos best career wins are, Marquez (2)"





See, what it comes down to is this. Of course he is an ATG. This is all that I have been trying to get across. Now, as some people say, it's not Pac's fault there aren't greater fighters around but that doesn't matter. Leonard fought and beat much greater opposition than Pac and a lot more of them. Like I said in a recent post, if there were four fighters of Mayweather's caliber today and Pac beat them all, he would only equal what Leonard did. As it is he hasn't beat a single guy that comes close to the fighters Leonard beat, and has lost or been knocked out by fighters of much, much, much less caliber so it's not possible for him to surpass that kind of level. Even beating Mayweather will only bring him close, but with all the other stuff (division titles) it may even make him surpass Leonard. Depends though on what plays out for the rest of his career.

What he has done so far is vastly overrated in comparison though at the moment compared to what someone like Leonard has done and who he has beaten.

It's kind of sad, but as many have said before me, there will probably never be another era of boxing so great as that one. When you have four guys as good as Duran, Leonard, Hearns and Hagler all fighting at similar times, dominating their own divisions and then fighting each other and all beating one of the others and losing to one of the others, to say that anything today equals that is simply ****** and ignorant.

We have a great 140 division at the moment. Imagine that but Khan, Pac, Mayweather, Ortiz, Alexander, Bradley etc, all being as good as Mayweather and Pac are and all having dominated the sport in their own way as Pac (although only recently) and Mayweather have. Now imagine them all fighting each other in a massive career long struggle and battle. That's what that era was. People now just can't understand what it was like then. They think Oscar/Maywather was a huge fight or Pac/Maywather is some amazing fight looked forward to around the world. They are but it's smaller than what was happening then.

"Manny Pacquiaos best career wins are, Marquez (2)"

in case you did not know Pacquiao fought Marquez TWICE and the (2) was indicating their 2nd fight

What you are saying and basing your argument on is that Marquez, Barrera, Delahoya & Morales are vastly inferior in terms of greatness to Duran, Hagler, Benitez & Hearns who Leonard beat, yet Leonard fought those fighters at 147-154-160lbs were as Pacquiao fought his opponents having moved from 106 through 120-126-130-142 and you give him zero credit for doing that.. Leonard beat Duran in their 3rd fight as Duran quit in their 2nd fight and Leonard lost their 1st fight and drew with Hearns in their 2nd fight when Hearns had been beaten by Barkley and looked ****e against James Kintchen.. so it is as easy for people to try to pull Leonards victories to pieces like you are trying to pull Pacquiaos victories to pieces plus Leonard beat Hagler in Marvins final career fight.

[El Jesus]

"Manny Pacquiaos best career wins are, Marquez (2)"

in case you did not know Pacquiao fought Marquez TWICE and the (2) was indicating their 2nd fight

What you are saying and basing your argument on is that Marquez, Barrera, Delahoya & Morales are vastly inferior in terms of greatness to Duran, Hagler, Benitez & Hearns who Leonard beat, yet Leonard fought those fighters at 147-154-160lbs were as Pacquiao fought his opponents having moved from 106 through 120-126-130-142 and you give him zero credit for doing that.. Leonard beat Duran in their 3rd fight as Duran quit in their 2nd fight and Leonard lost their 1st fight and drew with Hearns in their 2nd fight when Hearns had been beaten by Barkley and looked ****e against James Kintchen.. so it is as easy for people to try to pull Leonards victories to pieces like you are trying to pull Pacquiaos victories to pieces plus Leonard beat Hagler in Marvins final career fight.

So what? How old was Roberto Duran when he beat barkley? Duran was looked at as being largely shot and basically finished. You talk about pacquiao and his 106lbs when Duran came from 122, and dont give me that "pac was young trying to feed his family" Duran was fighting nothing but good competition as he moved up, since in that time, you couldnt just grab and ABC belt and claim to be a champion. Duran also had wars against far better competition. By the time he got to Barkley he was basically old, nowhere near what he was in the past and still managed to win in a major upset.

It was a testament to his intelligence and his smarts as a fighter that won him the fight. Whats also hilarious about pac is that as great as he is, Pac has all these belts, all these divisions but at the same time hes not an all time great in any particular division, pac has never dominated any division, hes won some great fights, and while hes moved up and won titles, hes never made any attempt to seal himself into any particular division. Duran is arguably the best lightweight of all time, that best lightweight moved up and fought arguably the toughest era of fighters in and around those divisions at the time.

Dont even attempt to take away when leonard fought them unless you are going to look at when pacquiao fought the guys he fought. Catchweights, matchmaking and making sure pac has the advantages he needs have factored into some of his biggest wins. While its the fault of the fights who accept these terms, its more than that, i definately feel pac keeps fighting the same common style, this is something that seperates leonard from pacquiao.

Think about guys like alexander, bradley and mayweather. Now think Benites, Hearns, and Duran. Im not comparing them, but i am saying stylistically those guys all presented major problems for Leonard at the time he fought them. Other than guys being "bigger" like cotto, or clottey for instance, how in the **** did any of them pose a stylistic nightmare for pacquiao? Leonard, with all his bull**** and all his ****** retirements and his garbage lightheavyweight title, fought those guys regardless of style.

It doesnt matter how much you pick apart Leonards wins with hearns and duran, keep in mind this is HEARNS and DURAN, two indviduals whom would likely tear pacquiao a new *******. This is like pacquiao getting in there with vernon forrest or paul williams. Like i said, Duran came from 122 and was all the way up to middleweight in a time when moving up was more than grabbing up david diaz' belt. You cant take those wins away from leonard.

[sonnyboyx2]

So what? How old was Roberto Duran when he beat barkley? Duran was looked at as being largely shot and basically finished. You talk about pacquiao and his 106lbs when Duran came from 122, and dont give me that "pac was young trying to feed his family" Duran was fighting nothing but good competition as he moved up, since in that time, you couldnt just grab and ABC belt and claim to be a champion. Duran also had wars against far better competition. By the time he got to Barkley he was basically old, nowhere near what he was in the past and still managed to win in a major upset.

It was a testament to his intelligence and his smarts as a fighter that won him the fight. Whats also hilarious about pac is that as great as he is, Pac has all these belts, all these divisions but at the same time hes not an all time great in any particular division, pac has never dominated any division, hes won some great fights, and while hes moved up and won titles, hes never made any attempt to seal himself into any particular division. Duran is arguably the best lightweight of all time, that best lightweight moved up and fought arguably the toughest era of fighters in and around those divisions at the time.

Dont even attempt to take away when leonard fought them unless you are going to look at when pacquiao fought the guys he fought. Catchweights, matchmaking and making sure pac has the advantages he needs have factored into some of his biggest wins. While its the fault of the fights who accept these terms, its more than that, i definately feel pac keeps fighting the same common style, this is something that seperates leonard from pacquiao.

Think about guys like alexander, bradley and mayweather. Now think Benites, Hearns, and Duran. Im not comparing them, but i am saying stylistically those guys all presented major problems for Leonard at the time he fought them. Other than guys being "bigger" like cotto, or clottey for instance, how in the **** did any of them pose a stylistic nightmare for pacquiao? Leonard, with all his bull**** and all his ****** retirements and his garbage lightheavyweight title, fought those guys regardless of style.

It doesnt matter how much you pick apart Leonards wins with hearns and duran, keep in mind this is HEARNS and DURAN, two indviduals whom would likely tear pacquiao a new *******. This is like pacquiao getting in there with vernon forrest or paul williams. Like i said, Duran came from 122 and was all the way up to middleweight in a time when moving up was more than grabbing up david diaz' belt. You cant take those wins away from leonard.

as you say "SO WHAT" who the **** is going on about Roberto Duran? this topic is about Pacquiao & Leonard not Duran, so you are way off the ****in mark..
as for Hearns and Duran tearing Pacquiao a new arse, well i would not be too sure of that, dont forget that Hearns poleaxed Duran and Kirkland Laing gave him a boxing lesson yet in no way is Laing anywhere near Pacquiao in boxing terms, Duran always struggled with guys who could box like he did with Estaban DeJesus & Ken Buchanan.. and who is on about a stylistic nightmare? ... Leonard was far superior to the vast number of his opponents skill wise.... this topic is about Pacquiao & Leonard not who the **** Duran fought or who was not stylistic for him.. you are not addressing the topic you are taking out a little "titbit" and making up a case of your own for that, because you cannot address the question.

[feroth]

as you say "SO WHAT" who the **** is going on about Roberto Duran? this topic is about Pacquiao & Leonard not Duran, so you are way off the ****in mark..
as for Hearns and Duran tearing Pacquiao a new arse, well i would not be too sure of that, dont forget that Hearns poleaxed Duran and Kirkland Laing gave him a boxing lesson yet in no way is Laing anywhere near Pacquiao in boxing terms, Duran always struggled with guys who could box like he did with Estaban DeJesus & Ken Buchanan.. and who is on about a stylistic nightmare? ... Leonard was far superior to the vast number of his opponents skill wise.... this topic is about Pacquiao & Leonard not who the **** Duran fought or who was not stylistic for him.. you are not addressing the topic you are taking out a little "titbit" and making up a case of your own for that, because you cannot address the question.

LOL I wouldn't be so sure of that? Well considering Manny wont even fight Yuri cuz he's too big you can bet on Manny not getting his handed to him by Hearns cuz he would never fight him. What he said about Duran is very relative cuz that same guy that is on another level compared to Manny is the same guy Leonard beat at the age of 24 lol. Manny has done nothing to be compared to Leonard or Duran. He fought regualr guys moving up to 125...beat Barrera (great win) then it's downhill from there. He lost to Morales n rematched him after he took a beating n coudln't make 130 no more. He lost to Marquez n instead of rematching him sooner he waited 4 yrs when by their own admission they thought Marquez wasn't the same n his new agressive style was gonna be easier to beat n they still got their ass handed to them. Then he moves up to fight Diaz all while he's skipped Guzman n Zahir who r the slick type that give him trouble. Fights Oscar after Roach had trained him in his last 2 fights and knew that Oscar was going over the hill n couldn't possilby make 147. Then he fights Ricky which was actually respectable but ducks the other slick guys at 140 n fights Cotto at 147 instead of Shane who he ducked TWICE. Now he wants to fight Margarito or rematch Cotto lol that ***** aint never gonna fight Shane he only says that cuz they know Floyd will beat Shane...n since they are afraid to show what's really going on in their camp they'll never take a blood test n never fight Floyd. Hopefully Floyd grows a pair too n puts himself above Manny n scraps the testing n kicks that bitches ass ne way but he's a soft ***** like most of the guys around now a days too so I doubt that happens either

[sonnyboyx2]

LOL I wouldn't be so sure of that? Well considering Manny wont even fight Yuri cuz he's too big you can bet on Manny not getting his handed to him by Hearns cuz he would never fight him. What he said about Duran is very relative cuz that same guy that is on another level compared to Manny is the same guy Leonard beat at the age of 24 lol. Manny has done nothing to be compared to Leonard or Duran. He fought regualr guys moving up to 125...beat Barrera (great win) then it's downhill from there. He lost to Morales n rematched him after he took a beating n coudln't make 130 no more. He lost to Marquez n instead of rematching him sooner he waited 4 yrs when by their own admission they thought Marquez wasn't the same n his new agressive style was gonna be easier to beat n they still got their ass handed to them. Then he moves up to fight Diaz all while he's skipped Guzman n Zahir who r the slick type that give him trouble. Fights Oscar after Roach had trained him in his last 2 fights and knew that Oscar was going over the hill n couldn't possilby make 147. Then he fights Ricky which was actually respectable but ducks the other slick guys at 140 n fights Cotto at 147 instead of Shane who he ducked TWICE. Now he wants to fight Margarito or rematch Cotto lol that ***** aint never gonna fight Shane he only says that cuz they know Floyd will beat Shane...n since they are afraid to show what's really going on in their camp they'll never take a blood test n never fight Floyd. Hopefully Floyd grows a pair too n puts himself above Manny n scraps the testing n kicks that bitches ass ne way but he's a soft ***** like most of the guys around now a days too so I doubt that happens either

The Words of a "Hate Monger"