What Does Pacquiao Have To Do, To Surpass Ray Leonard?

[bojangles1987]

You can pick holes in pretty much any fighters record no matter how great they are

Its a shame that some fans do this,instead of focusing on the incredible things the fighter has done

I agree, that's what I was trying to get across. Everyone treats Pac's wins over Barrera, Morales, Marquez, Hatton, Cotto, and now Clottey like anyone could have done it and those were all bums.

If you really want, you can discredit every win any fighter has ever had.

[S.G.]

He needs to beat Mayweather for starters. Pacquiao has quite a few excellent wins but he doesn't have one of the Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benitez calibre - an era defining win let alone a legacy defining win; I think beating Floyd would change that.

Then I think it'd be fair to rank him above Ray Leonard. Leonard was an amazing fighter, one of the best that ever lived, but he let his career tail off too early. His wins over the names I mentioned justify a very high position on anyone's ATG list because they were the best of the best, but for me his résumé is lacking in flesh a little bit.

[mickey malone]

I don't think it's unfair to say he's done more than Leonard, but a win over Mosely or Mayweather will make sure of it..

[TOBYLEE1]

Dominate Floyd and Shane with taking drug tests to eliminate any doubt

[BennyST]

Something he has not done since 2003.

Fight (and convincingly beat) someone who

1) is elite
2) at a healthy weight
3) has not been dominated in his last big fight.

And I am not very big on Leonard.

This.

I already think he should rank higher than Leonard. Leonard had a remarkably short career for how much talent he had and the people he beat.

Pac's been around longer and done more.

Yes, but those he did beat were far, far superior than anything Pac has done or could do. Imagine beating four Floyd Mayweathers. That's what Leonard did. Pac hasn't beaten one.

Morales
Marquez
Barrera
Delahoya
Cotto
Hatton

all these guys will be ranked in the Top 10 All time of their division yet Pacquiao beat them... Leonard lost to Duran, Duran quit in their 2nd fight and was `shot` in their 3rd fight, Leonard beat Hearns then was very fortunate to get a draw with Hearns in their 2nd fight

Ummmmmmmmm...........What? All in the top ten of their division? Are you absolutely out of your mind?

Morales yes at SBW. He lost to Pac at 130 (as welll as beat him just like Leonard lost to prime, good version of top ten ATG Duran) and was at the end of his career. If he had fought at 122 all those years prior Pac would have lost every fight.

Barrera, yes, but again it's at 122 where he's rated, not 126 or 130. Marquez, maybe at 126 though that is not definite at all. FW is a pretty damn deep division man.

Oscar? No.
Cotto?
Hatton?

Either way, Morales, Barrera, Oscar and Marquez all might just make the top 100 depending on who you talk to. Most importantly though, Oscar and Morales weren't close to top thousand fighters at the time he fought them. Names mean what exactly if they are **** at the time? Camacho beat Leonard and Duran. He must be better than Pac right? The others don't even bear mentioning though. Don't be fooled. I can think of ten better WW's than Cotto in just the last twenty/thirty years.

You bring up Leonard's loss to Duran and Duran quitting etc. Morales was shot. You cannot argue that. He was done as a top fighter of any caliber. Barrera rematch was pointless. First Barrera win is his biggest career win by far. He had been beaten up by Marquez prior to rematch and didn't even try to turn up for it against Pac. Marquez win and draw are both very debatable. The rest were all coming off shocking career worst losses....That includes Morales before every single fight they had.

Explain when the last loss before each Leonard fight for all those guys were?

All up, his wins are not that incredible. His weight jumping is the only thing that sets him apart. All those guys were seriously beatable and flawed. Cotto would lose to so many good and not so good fighters it's laughable, Oscar was just completely a shell, Hatton was just ****. The other guys had all been recently and not so recently beaten too. Barrera knocked cold and decisioned by Jr Jones, beaten by Morales, then later Marquez. Morales beaten by Barrera, Raheem, Pac then Diaz even!

For a guy that is supposedly meant to be in the top five ATGs, you want to be saying he's beaten at last one other top ATG in his prime at their best weight or something seriously....None of that actually comes up. Forget Oscar, Hatton, Cotto and Morales. It's Barrera that's important. That's his biggest win and a great win but enough?

Not only that but up to and including the Morales loss, he wasn't even on the ATG radar for anything. Not in one division nor as someone even talked about getting near the top hundred. Then, he beats a version of Morales that any title holder would have beaten as evidenced in his next fight against Diaz and before Pac II by his embarrassing whipping from Raheem worse than Pac did.

After that you have Marquez in a very debatable fight that the large % thought he lost. His ATGreatness comes from beating who? Diaz, Hatton, Oscar and Cotto. All good stuff for the fact that it was done at a higher weight, but are you serious? These guys, especially after the fact all but Diaz had come off brutal losses or were finishing their careers or both....Pull your damn head out man.

All of those wins just don't get close to equaling 71-1 Duran, 62-2 Hagler, 28-0 Hearns and 40-0 or something Benitez. Not one of those guys had lost a fight in, either their whole career, or in the previous eight years! Those guys all up had lost an entire three fights between them (all of which had been avenged by KO) in careers that spanned back some fifteen years or so and over two hundred fights!

Cotto lost just recently by bad KO and a suss decision immediately before Pac fight, getting beaten up again.
Morales lost all previous fights before every fight he had with Pac.
Hatton had recently been KO'd by Floyd.
Barrera hadn't lost since Morales I or II, depending on how you view it. Officially he hadn't lost since the first fight but it was actually only two fights previous that he lost to Morales. The rematch with Pac he had beaten up by Marquez just prior.
Larios had lost his previous fight by KO.
Oscar had lost 50%, that's half, of his fights in the last five years.
Diaz had done ok though. In the last three years he'd only been knocked out once and had a draw against some unknown dude with ten fights.
If Margarito is the next fight, guess what, he'll win and get massively praised and people will call him the GOAT, even after Margarito got so brutalised and horribly knocked out by Mosley I thought he'd never step foot in the ring afterward again. It's pretty rare you see someone take that type of sustained beating and then get knocked out without them ending up damaged permanently in some way. Poor bastard.

Add up just the amount of losses (by KO too) that Pac's opponents had had in only the last couple of years previous to him fighting them.

You know something that isn't talked about much? The win over Kalule is better than beating Cotto, Hatton and Oscar too. He was a much better, trickier, tougher fighter at the time than all three of those guys. Didn't have the name though so of course everyone just says "Pac beat Cotto, Hatton and Oscar! He's top five already!"



Christ, you could cry sometimes.

[Akinapepemo]

If you're going to compare Pacquiao to SRL in terms of ATG names beaten, then of course Pacquiao won't surpass SRL (in my opinion that is), although through no fault of Pacquiao, since he didn't have the same quality dance partners, unlike SRLwho had highly-ranked ATG's to fight.

To be fair to Pacquiao, even if those names aren't high-ranked ATGs, they were the best of their time, hence the 4 lineal titles.

The reason Pacquiao is ranked highly or compared favorably to ATG's is not just the names on his resume, but the emphasis of his number of titles over different weight classes and lineal reigns, making him unique among ATG's. (perhaps only comparable to Armstrong)

This 'unique' feat, sadly, is the cause for debate, making it hard for historians and fans to pinpoint his place on ATG lists. For some, that feat is enough to break the top 10, while for some it just helps the case, but not enough. tough call really.

[Akinapepemo]

As for those posters suggesting that Pacquiao campaign higher than WW, give the guy a break. The man has been barely filling up 147 on the scales, he is tiny for 154. WW should be the last stop.

Persistent suggestions of Pacquiao campaigning beyond welter in order to cement his legacy suggests that the poster is unaware of the significance of Pacquiao's achievements in the lower-weights, where the bulk if his greatest wins are.

[Jim Jeffries]

As for those posters suggesting that Pacquiao campaign higher than WW, give the guy a break. The man has been barely filling up 147 on the scales, he is tiny for 154. WW should be the last stop.

Persistent suggestions of Pacquiao campaigning beyond welter in order to cement his legacy suggests that the poster is unaware of the significance of Pacquiao's achievements in the lower-weights, where the bulk if his greatest wins are.

Hell he's small compared to some 140 lbers, like Bradley



I think if Cotto beats Foreman for a 154 lb title and then Pac beats Miguel in the rematch, it would go a long way. That or a win over the Mayweather/Mosley winner.

[Akinapepemo]

Hell he's small compared to some 140 lbers, like Bradley



I think if Cotto beats Foreman for a 154 lb title and then Pac beats Miguel in the rematch, it would go a long way. That or a win over the Mayweather/Mosley winner.

Whoa, he does look bigger than Pac. It's a shame 140 isn't as profitable as WW. After DLH gave Pacquiao a taste of a big purse, Pacquiao has never looked back. I hope Bradley keeps on building his popularity just in case a Shane-Floyd winner isn't the next fight for Pacquiao.

Somehow i have a feeling that if Pacquiao rematches Cotto, he'll be nitpicked to death by critics. I do know Cotto still has it in him.

[sonnyboyx2]

This.



Yes, but those he did beat were far, far superior than anything Pac has done or could do. Imagine beating four Floyd Mayweathers. That's what Leonard did. Pac hasn't beaten one.



Ummmmmmmmm...........What? All in the top ten of their division? Are you absolutely out of your mind?

Morales yes at SBW. He lost to Pac at 130 (as welll as beat him just like Leonard lost to prime, good version of top ten ATG Duran) and was at the end of his career. If he had fought at 122 all those years prior Pac would have lost every fight.

Barrera, yes, but again it's at 122 where he's rated, not 126 or 130. Marquez, maybe at 126 though that is not definite at all. FW is a pretty damn deep division man.

Oscar? No.
Cotto?
Hatton?

Either way, Morales, Barrera, Oscar and Marquez all might just make the top 100 depending on who you talk to. Most importantly though, Oscar and Morales weren't close to top thousand fighters at the time he fought them. Names mean what exactly if they are **** at the time? Camacho beat Leonard and Duran. He must be better than Pac right? The others don't even bear mentioning though. Don't be fooled. I can think of ten better WW's than Cotto in just the last twenty/thirty years.

You bring up Leonard's loss to Duran and Duran quitting etc. Morales was shot. You cannot argue that. He was done as a top fighter of any caliber. Barrera rematch was pointless. First Barrera win is his biggest career win by far. He had been beaten up by Marquez prior to rematch and didn't even try to turn up for it against Pac. Marquez win and draw are both very debatable. The rest were all coming off shocking career worst losses....That includes Morales before every single fight they had.

Explain when the last loss before each Leonard fight for all those guys were?

All up, his wins are not that incredible. His weight jumping is the only thing that sets him apart. All those guys were seriously beatable and flawed. Cotto would lose to so many good and not so good fighters it's laughable, Oscar was just completely a shell, Hatton was just ****. The other guys had all been recently and not so recently beaten too. Barrera knocked cold and decisioned by Jr Jones, beaten by Morales, then later Marquez. Morales beaten by Barrera, Raheem, Pac then Diaz even!

For a guy that is supposedly meant to be in the top five ATGs, you want to be saying he's beaten at last one other top ATG in his prime at their best weight or something seriously....None of that actually comes up. Forget Oscar, Hatton, Cotto and Morales. It's Barrera that's important. That's his biggest win and a great win but enough?

Not only that but up to and including the Morales loss, he wasn't even on the ATG radar for anything. Not in one division nor as someone even talked about getting near the top hundred. Then, he beats a version of Morales that any title holder would have beaten as evidenced in his next fight against Diaz and before Pac II by his embarrassing whipping from Raheem worse than Pac did.

After that you have Marquez in a very debatable fight that the large % thought he lost. His ATGreatness comes from beating who? Diaz, Hatton, Oscar and Cotto. All good stuff for the fact that it was done at a higher weight, but are you serious? These guys, especially after the fact all but Diaz had come off brutal losses or were finishing their careers or both....Pull your damn head out man.

All of those wins just don't get close to equaling 71-1 Duran, 62-2 Hagler, 28-0 Hearns and 40-0 or something Benitez. Not one of those guys had lost a fight in, either their whole career, or in the previous eight years! Those guys all up had lost an entire three fights between them (all of which had been avenged by KO) in careers that spanned back some fifteen years or so and over two hundred fights!

Cotto lost just recently by bad KO and a suss decision immediately before Pac fight, getting beaten up again.
Morales lost all previous fights before every fight he had with Pac.
Hatton had recently been KO'd by Floyd.
Barrera hadn't lost since Morales I or II, depending on how you view it. Officially he hadn't lost since the first fight but it was actually only two fights previous that he lost to Morales. The rematch with Pac he had beaten up by Marquez just prior.
Larios had lost his previous fight by KO.
Oscar had lost 50%, that's half, of his fights in the last five years.
Diaz had done ok though. In the last three years he'd only been knocked out once and had a draw against some unknown dude with ten fights.
If Margarito is the next fight, guess what, he'll win and get massively praised and people will call him the GOAT, even after Margarito got so brutalised and horribly knocked out by Mosley I thought he'd never step foot in the ring afterward again. It's pretty rare you see someone take that type of sustained beating and then get knocked out without them ending up damaged permanently in some way. Poor bastard.

Add up just the amount of losses (by KO too) that Pac's opponents had had in only the last couple of years previous to him fighting them.

You know something that isn't talked about much? The win over Kalule is better than beating Cotto, Hatton and Oscar too. He was a much better, trickier, tougher fighter at the time than all three of those guys. Didn't have the name though so of course everyone just says "Pac beat Cotto, Hatton and Oscar! He's top five already!"



Christ, you could cry sometimes.

so you are saying Morales, Barrera, Delahoya, Marquez & Hatton will not be rated in the Top 10 of their weight divisions in the next 10yrs or so ?.... they are most likely already rated in the their divisions Top 10 now.

Pacquiao would have lost every fight at 122lbs you claim... that stinks of being a "HATER" so your comments cannot be taken seriously.

You are claiming Pacquiao beat Barrera & Marquez in weight divisions which they was not comfortable at, yet Pacquiao is the guy who moved up through the weights, so again you are wrong or is it just you being a "HATER"

you say:
Either way, Morales, Barrera, Oscar and Marquez all might just make the top 100 depending on who you talk to.... yet all those fighters spend an entire decade being ranked in the Top P4P list and winning world titles in several weight divisions and you claim they dont make a Top 100 Oscar Delahoya not a Top 100 ATG fighter is a bazaar claim to make.

you then make this statement:
Oscar and Morales weren't close to top thousand fighters at the time he fought them.... again the kind of statement that only a "HATER" would make.. both Oscar & Morales was world champions and P4P rated yet you claim their are at least 1000 other fighters who should be rated above them... again a very bazaar claim.

you claim Oscar was completely shot yet it was Delahoya who chose to fight Pacquiao and Pacquiao was an 8/1 dog to KO Oscar...

Hatton had never been defeated at 140lbs and called for a fight with Pacquiao

Marquez lost his first fight with Pacquiao and called for a rematch yet was again beaten

Morales was at the top of his game in his first 2 fights with Pacquiao.
Yet you rubbish all these fights and the way in which Pacquiao won, so again it is the words of an "HATER" it cannot be anything other than that because those fights was contenders for FOTY and Pacquiao was voted Fighter of the Year`

You claim that all his opponents came off brutal losses yet only Cotto had ever suffered a brutal loss and he had regrouped and won a world title, so again it kinda smacks of you being a "HATER"

Morales had been in FOTY with Barrera and lost by a split-decision, he then fought Pacquiao and was far from being a `shot fighter`.. you are trying anyway you can to diminish the career and achievements of Manny Pacquiao.

Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Hatton , Cotto & Delahoya are all world class boxers and when world class boxers repeatedly fight eachother then they will win and lose and that is what happened yet you are claiming that when they lose they are SHOT which is a load of rubbish... not once have you given credit to Pacquiao for being the great fighter he is by moving through the weights and beating the best opponents available in the P4P ratings so i can only put it down to you being a Pacquiao HATER