If Ali were never stripped of his title in 1967, could he have beaten Louis' record?

[Titlist]

Lets look at this from another angle. No one would argue Ali didn't fight in the best heavyweight era. But Louis was also deprived more than 3 years of his career. Had he not been his defense total would probably be much higher. Do you think Ali going to match that in an era such as he fought? another thing to consider is if Ali had never have been banned would there have been an earlier onset of parkinson's than what actually occurred? We don't know, but chances are there just like they are of Ali getting 25 defenses in Louis era.

Since upsets can happen, I don't think it's right for us to suddenly increase his title record, because of the war. Even if this discussion is fantasy-based. Let's just leave it at 25, since that's what Louis' actual record stands at. But I will say that that's an interesting discussion for another topic.

In the start of his title reign, Ali wasn't that active. He only fought twice in one year, after he won the title. But, in 1966, he made 5 title defenses, which is around the average number of times Louis was defending his per year. He started off to a great 1967, as well. He defended it twice in less than two months, by the end of March.

If his boxing license hadn't been suspended, Ali would've made his next title defenses against fighters who he would later go on to easily beat (while he was past his prime). Here's the heavyweight rankings from 1967 to 1970, according to The Ring Magazine:

1967

Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Joe Frazier
2. Thad Spencer
3. Jimmy Ellis
4. Manuel Ramos
5. Jerry Quarry
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Hector Eduardo Corletti
9. Karl Mildenberger
10. Ernie Terrell

1968

Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Joe Frazier
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Oscar Bonavena
4. George Chuvalo
5. Sonny Liston
6. Jerry Quarry
7. Leotis Martin
8. Manuel Ramos
9. Alvin (Blue) Lewis
10. Floyd Patterson

1969

Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Joe Frazier
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Jerry Quarry
4. Leotis Martin
5. Mac Foster
6. Sonny Liston
7. Oscar Bonavena
8. Al Jones
9. Henry Cooper
10. Gregorio Manuel Peralta

1970

Joe Frazier, Champion

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Oscar Bonavena
4. Jerry Quarry
5. Mac Foster
6. Henry Cooper
7. George Chuvalo
8. Sonny Liston
9. Jose Ibar Urtain
10. Jose Luis Garcia

As you can see from those rankings, Ali would later go on to beat most of those top 10 ranked fighters, while being past his prime.

Now, the only name that would stand out would be Frazier.

Frazier came into the FOTC in the best shape of his career, while Ali still had some ring rust. The fight was very close, as some even had Ali winning the fight by one round (including me).

Let's go back for a minute, though. If Ali's license hadn't been suspended, he would've likely fought Frazier in 1967, as Frazier was ranked at the top. That would mean that a prime version of Ali would've faced a green version of Frazier. I think it's pretty clear that Ali would've likely won.

Now, we've come to the conclusion about two things:

1) Ali would most likely fought 5-6 times a year.

2) A prime Ali would've faced a green Frazier, as well as opponents he would later go on to defeat (again, while being past his prime).

Since a prime Ali would be fighting opponents he would later go on to beat, while making 5-6 title defenses a year and having already made 9, it's certainly possible that he would've surpassed Louis' record.

[boxingbuff]

Louis opposition wasn't weak though. If you believe that I'll ask you to do what another poster declined to do when this same argument was done before. Post 10 heavyweight champions with better resumes than Louis and why they're better. I'll be happy to make arguments at that point. Until than, just calling a mans title reign weak does not suffice.

Never beating a top 15 Heavyweight of all-time is weak compared to Ali's opposition.

[JAB5239]

Never beating a top 15 Heavyweight of all-time is weak compared to Ali's opposition.

Unfortunate for you that you never said in comparison to Ali's era. You just called it weak. Can you name 10 better heavyweight title reigns, yes or no?

[JAB5239]

Since upsets can happen, I don't think it's right for us to suddenly increase his title record, because of the war. Even if this discussion is fantasy-based. Let's just leave it at 25, since that's what Louis' actual record stands at. But I will say that that's an interesting discussion for another topic.

In the start of his title reign, Ali wasn't that active. He only fought twice in one year, after he won the title. But, in 1966, he made 5 title defenses, which is around the average number of times Louis was defending his per year. He started off to a great 1967, as well. He defended it twice in less than two months, by the end of March.

If his boxing license hadn't been suspended, Ali would've made his next title defenses against fighters who he would later go on to easily beat (while he was past his prime). Here's the heavyweight rankings from 1967 to 1970, according to The Ring Magazine:









As you can see from those rankings, Ali would later go on to beat most of those top 10 ranked fighters, while being past his prime.

Now, the only name that would stand out would be Frazier.

Frazier came into the FOTC in the best shape of his career, while Ali still had some ring rust. The fight was very close, as some even had Ali winning the fight by one round (including me).

Let's go back for a minute, though. If Ali's license hadn't been suspended, he would've likely fought Frazier in 1967, as Frazier was ranked at the top. That would mean that a prime version of Ali would've faced a green version of Frazier. I think it's pretty clear that Ali would've likely won.

Now, we've come to the conclusion about two things:

1) Ali would most likely fought 5-6 times a year.

2) A prime Ali would've faced a green Frazier, as well as opponents he would later go on to defeat (again, while being past his prime).

Since a prime Ali would be fighting opponents he would later go on to beat, while making 5-6 title defenses a year and having already made 9, it's certainly possible that he would've surpassed Louis' record.

This is a good post. How do you think the wear and tear of those years, had he been able to fight, would have effected him physically and with the parkinsons?

[boxingbuff]

This is a good post. How do you think the wear and tear of those years, had he been able to fight, would have effected him physically and with the parkinsons?

There would be little if any wear and tear during those years.

Prime Muhammad Ali was almost impossible to hit with a clean punch.

[geribeetus]

i think even without the layoff frazier was trouble for ali. their fight wouldn't have gotten the hype it did since it wouldn't be champion vs ex champion, it'd just be another defense for ali. there wouldn't be as much animosity between them since joe wouldn't have needed to help ali financially. without the layoff ali might've overlooked frazier and his reign would be interrupted.

i think it was possible for him to beat louis' record, but he was so far off there's just too many unknowns to really decide.

[F l i c k e r]

Nope.


Because he would have been fighting in Vietnam.

[Titlist]

This is a good post. How do you think the wear and tear of those years, had he been able to fight, would have effected him physically and with the parkinsons?

He was still in his prime, by 1967, and he would've had a much easier time with the opponents that he would defend his title against, since, in reality, he would later go on to beat them.

The opponents that would propose the most serious challenge would obviously be Frazier and Foreman. But I still don't think they would leave him that battle-worn.

As for the Parkinson's, I don't know.

[Snopkins]

Ali didn't overlook anyone during his first title reign,not sure why he would suddenly start with an undefeated gold medalist.

Ali of the 60's wasn't the fat out shape blob of the 70's.He always stayed in shape.


frazier's a fairly easy defense.frazier and Yank Durham knew this too....which is why they were in no hurry to fight him at his peak.

Because he would have been fighting in Vietnam.

How wrong you are.

[boxingbuff]

Unfortunate for you that you never said in comparison to Ali's era. You just called it weak. Can you name 10 better heavyweight title reigns, yes or no?

You don't have to beat EVERY fighter to be the GOAT.

So no need to defend Joe Louis in "every" fantasy head to head fight.

Muhammad Ali might have lost to Mike Tyson,but that doesn't make Tyson the greater fighter with the better resume.The same goes for Joe Frazier.He might have beat a prime Muhammad Ali,but that would not make him the GOAT.Sonny Liston and George Forman both blast out Frazier early.The same goes with Mike Tyson.But Muhammad Ali beats both Sonny Liston and George Forman.Muhammad Ali has a better resume then both Tyson and Frazier.

So no need to defend Joe Louis in EVERY fantasy head to head match up.He doesn't have to beat "everybody" to be the GOAT.Muhammad Ali's style would be a nightmare for Joe Louis.George Forman and Sonny Liston both have a better than a 50-50 chance of beating Joe Louis.That doesn't mean there better than Joe Louis,and have a better resume.

Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis have the two best resume's of all-time.There so close I will say there even for the sake of argument.But Muhammad Ali fought and beat the better opposition than Joe Louis.It's just speculation when you say Joe Louis would beat Sonny Liston,George Forman,and Joe Frazier.But it's a FACT that Muhammad Ali beat them all.

You really believe Joe Louis would beat Muhammad Ali,George Forman,Sonny Liston,and Joe Frazier? Remember,he doesn't have to beat them all to be the GOAT. Which fighter do you feel would have the best chance of beating Joe Louis?