If Ali were never stripped of his title in 1967, could he have beaten Louis' record?

[irishdude]

Louis held it from 1937 to 1949, Ali from 64 till 67 when he was stripped. If he wasn't stripped, and kept his form going, would he have been Joe Louis' record?

[Sugarj]

No, I dont think Ali would get to 25 title defenses. I rate him as a higher heavyweight in ATG terms than Louis, but had Ali boxed on I think he would have still turned up overconfident for Norton in 1973, this is where I think his first loss would have come.

Without the war, Ali would have met Frazier in 1968 and would most likely have won without the layoff.

But its a big ask to think that Ali would get past the likes of Frazier, Norton and Foreman first time out in pursuit of 25+ title defenses. Not impossible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Rolling Stone]

maybe, maybe not......

Joe Louis also suffered because of the war during his title reign.......its scary to think Louis could've had atleast 40 title defenses if it weren't for the war

nevertheless i take quality over quantity

[sonnyboyx2]

yes he would have beaten Louis record quite easily, Ali lost the best years of his career in the lay-off, in 1966 he made 5 succesfull defences of his title so going by that statistic he would have beaten it easily.. The 8 man elimination tournement set up to find Ali`s successor in 1968 was made up of men Ali beat when he returned, he would also have been to much for Joe Frazier had they met in 1967/8

[Sugarj]

I dont know Sonnyboyx, to beat Louis he'd have had to defend his title another 17 times, thats a hell of alot of defenses at world level......not 'easily' at all.

I know he defended 5 times in 66, but it takes its toll on an athlete at world level to keep that up for the next three and a half years, he'd almost constantly be in training camp. I agree that he would beat Frazier in 68 but he would ship some serious wear and tear at that sort of activity level through fighting, sparring and training.....he would surely want a few months off after fighting 68 Frazier!!

Also in 1965 he gave himself a nasty hernia which reduced his activity that year, we cant rule out injuries happening again.

If we speculate that he could/would have fought the following:

Frazier
Ellis
Martin (after his win over Liston )
Patterson
Quarry
Bonavena
Mathis
Mac Foster
Bob Foster
Chuvalo

Thats ten pretty tough defenses, he would win them more than likely but then the governing bodies would wheel the likes of Frazier out again come the early 70s, Quarry again, then maybe Foreman a bit earlier than expected after his win over Chuvalo.

Tough calls, all while the awkward Norton was waiting.....and Ali never really mastered that style.

In a way, the three years he had off may have preserved his career.....his body and brain certainly were not absorbing world class punches during that time.

He may well have achieved a further 17 title defenses, but easily.....no. Likely? dunno.

[mickey malone]

Even if he ploughed through Europe again, i'm sure the boxing public wern't exactly crying out for returns with Coopman, Dunn and Evangelista.. There wasn't enough Chuck Wepner's to go round and Ali liked to keep it in the top 10, so I doubt it.

[sonnyboyx2]

I dont know Sonnyboyx, to beat Louis he'd have had to defend his title another 17 times, thats a hell of alot of defenses at world level......not 'easily' at all.

I know he defended 5 times in 66, but it takes its toll on an athlete at world level to keep that up for the next three and a half years, he'd almost constantly be in training camp. I agree that he would beat Frazier in 68 but he would ship some serious wear and tear at that sort of activity level through fighting, sparring and training.....he would surely want a few months off after fighting 68 Frazier!!

Also in 1965 he gave himself a nasty hernia which reduced his activity that year, we cant rule out injuries happening again.

If we speculate that he could/would have fought the following:

Frazier
Ellis
Martin (after his win over Liston )
Patterson
Quarry
Bonavena
Mathis
Mac Foster
Bob Foster
Chuvalo

Thats ten pretty tough defenses, he would win them more than likely but then the governing bodies would wheel the likes of Frazier out again come the early 70s, Quarry again, then maybe Foreman a bit earlier than expected after his win over Chuvalo.

Tough calls, all while the awkward Norton was waiting.....and Ali never really mastered that style.

In a way, the three years he had off may have preserved his career.....his body and brain certainly were not absorbing world class punches during that time.

He may well have achieved a further 17 title defenses, but easily.....no. Likely? dunno.

The 3 and a half years off caused Ali to lose his legs and also shortened his career longevity, without the 3yrs off he would have remained in the form he held when known as Cassius Clay who was the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, IMO Ali would have remained undefeated from 64-78 beating all comers, breaking all records.

[Holtol]

The 3 and a half years off caused Ali to lose his legs and also shortened his career longevity, without the 3yrs off he would have remained in the form he held when known as Cassius Clay who was the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, IMO Ali would have remained undefeated from 64-78 beating all comers, breaking all records.

This is true, Ali would have further developed his boxing. And would have had a much easier time with fighters like Frazier. He would have taken far less punches.

[CarlosG815]

Ali was in too tough of an era.

Joe Louis was great but his record is a testament to the lack of competition at that time.

Most of those guys were part time boxers who could barely afford to eat and spent most of their time trying to earn money to feed their families, then would box on the side.

That's just my opinion though. I believe that modern day athletes are superior to far past era athletes and the competition is much tougher.

We will never again see a fighter defend a HW title 25 times.

[GJC]

Quite possible I guess, rattling out 3 or 4 defences a year he could have surpased Louis before he hit his 30's and his legs would have started to go.
Also before Norton, who he always had problems with, became a factor.
Also before Foreman became a factor too.
Interestingly though if we follow the what if scenario it is not improbably that he might have taken the challenge of Foreman lightly and Foreman could have beaten him. The rumble in the jungle would still have happened maybe a year earlier probably with the same result. Would have certainly made a rematch/rubber match inevitable.
Not to underestimate Frazier here, for my money the 68/69 Frazier was better than the 71 Frazier. Obviously Ali would have been better too but again might he have taken Frazier too lightly?

Thing is as much as inactivity hurts a fighter they also only have so many fights in them, a couple of wars with Frazier in the late 60's might well have told on Ali in the early 70's even if he won them.

To be fair to Louis though WWII robbed him of a good 6 possibly 10 defences before Joe Baksi inevitably beat him