If Ali were never stripped of his title in 1967, could he have beaten Louis' record?

[sonnyboyx2]

Muhammad Ali would have most likely never ever fought Ken Norton if he never had 3yrs off... Ali was in San Diego with his entourage in 1973 and they went into a disco, Ali was used to lots of female chicks coming up to him and admiring him wanting autographs etc, but in the disco no chicks came near Ali they all was hanging around a Big guy at the bar who was Ken Norton (Mandingo).. Ali got real jealous and angry and asked who Norton was, when he heard Norton was a pro boxer but still only a fringe contender (20-30 ranked) Ali started to clown and mock Norton, saying that he was going to fight him in the ring as soon as possible and that he would fight him right there in Nortons hometown of San Diego so that all the chicks could see who the better man was... the rest is history!

[GJC]

Muhammad Ali would have most likely never ever fought Ken Norton if he never had 3yrs off... Ali was in San Diego with his entourage in 1973 and they went into a disco, Ali was used to lots of female chicks coming up to him and admiring him wanting autographs etc, but in the disco no chicks came near Ali they all was hanging around a Big guy at the bar who was Ken Norton (Mandingo).. Ali got real jealous and angry and asked who Norton was, when he heard Norton was a pro boxer but still only a fringe contender (20-30 ranked) Ali started to clown and mock Norton, saying that he was going to fight him in the ring as soon as possible and that he would fight him right there in Nortons hometown of San Diego so that all the chicks could see who the better man was... the rest is history!

Nice story never heard that one
He did kind of come out of nowhere Norton.
Talented fighter tho Norton, would have thought he would have entered Ali's orbit at some point though especially if Ali had cleared the division out?

[sonnyboyx2]

maybe not because the contenders would have had to fight eachother, Frazier v Norton, Foreman v Quarry, Norton v Lyle, Frazier v Patterson, Norton v Shavers, Liston v Frazier etc etc and with so many big punchers around Norton may never have gotten to top contender status

[GJC]

maybe not because the contenders would have had to fight eachother, Frazier v Norton, Foreman v Quarry, Norton v Lyle, Frazier v Patterson, Norton v Shavers, Liston v Frazier etc etc and with so many big punchers around Norton may never have gotten to top contender status

Difficult to say really Evangelista and Lyle both got a shot coming in off a loss. Contenders get scarce they always find a way to get a fresh name in somehow, thats the boxing business

[Heru]

Ali would've gotten bored at some point during his streak, he got bored and would come in out of shape during his 2nd and longer title reign.

I have a hard time seeing the first version of Ali getting beat by anyone though, especially if he actually had the chin, determination, and intelligence he showed the second half.

[Sugarj]

Some interesting points folks. But to be honest the man was human, I couldn't see him lasting out till 1978 without a defeat fighting 4 or 5 times a year in one of the toughest eras. That would equate to at least a further 44 defenses on top of the 9 he made in the 60s! Its too long for an athlete to remain in world class! Even without the layoff Ali wouldn't be dancing like a young Cassius until the late 70s, shuffling inbetween combinations. Even boxers who keep active lose their leg speed and mobility into their 30s......look at Larry Holmes, Roy Jones, Ray Robinson, Pernell Whitakker, Oscar De La Hoya.

An athlete accumulates wear and tear through intense training, sparring and the fights themselves. I agree that Ali would have kept his legs into the early 70s, but like everyone else his reflexes would start to go a bit into his early 30s and he would ship heavier punches which would take their toll over time. Bob Foster cut him, Norton broke his jaw. These sort of things could well happen with other fighters as opponents. Just imagine if a young Foreman landed a similar overhand right and broke Ali's jaw if Ali was overconfident and undertrained.............theres no way Ali would make that fight to the final bell!

Ali was known for training without vigour for certain fights his entire career, Jones, Cooper, Norton, even Frazier 3, Young, Spinks to name just a few. As GJC touched on he may have turned up for Foreman overconfident (as Frazier was, the press thought Foreman had no chance, they'd be the same if Ali was champ) or if he turned up for a Frazier rematch undertrained, any version of Norton causes him problems. A further Louis beating 17 defenses is a tough ask.......but to think he could have remained champion for 14 years in total is unlikely. Also, remember a loss can renew a boxer's motivation, give them renewed vigour. Ali could be prone to complacency......and it could have cost him his title at some point.

Ali is for me the best heavyweight that ever lived, my supreme boxing idol. But I dont want to delude myself that he could have pulled off such a feat. I just think we need to understand that he was human, he wasn't unhittable and it is more than possible that he'd have turned up for someone in the wrong frame of mind or physical condition. Or to possibly lose whilst picking up an unlucky injury.

Louis only averaged just over two defenses a year over his reign.......the war blunted his number of defenses and to be honest his opposition wasn't as good as Ali's. But I cant see Ali fighting 4-5 times a year and reigning for above 12 years any more than I could imagine Louis reigning for 12 years fighting even less skilled opposition 4-5 times a year.....someone would eventually get lucky!

[Jim Jeffries]

Both Louis and Ali missed out on almost equal portions of their prime, so a fairer question is without the two wars which caused them to miss that time, who would've had more consecutive title defenses? I'd say Louis, he fought more frequently and had a bit easier opposition.

[sonnyboyx2]

Some interesting points folks. But to be honest the man was human, I couldn't see him lasting out till 1978 without a defeat fighting 4 or 5 times a year in one of the toughest eras. That would equate to at least a further 44 defenses on top of the 9 he made in the 60s! Its too long for an athlete to remain in world class! Even without the layoff Ali wouldn't be dancing like a young Cassius until the late 70s, shuffling inbetween combinations. Even boxers who keep active lose their leg speed and mobility into their 30s......look at Larry Holmes, Roy Jones, Ray Robinson, Pernell Whitakker, Oscar De La Hoya.

An athlete accumulates wear and tear through intense training, sparring and the fights themselves. I agree that Ali would have kept his legs into the early 70s, but like everyone else his reflexes would start to go a bit into his early 30s and he would ship heavier punches which would take their toll over time. Bob Foster cut him, Norton broke his jaw. These sort of things could well happen with other fighters as opponents. Just imagine if a young Foreman landed a similar overhand right and broke Ali's jaw if Ali was overconfident and undertrained.............theres no way Ali would make that fight to the final bell!

Ali was known for training without vigour for certain fights his entire career, Jones, Cooper, Norton, even Frazier 3, Young, Spinks to name just a few. As GJC touched on he may have turned up for Foreman overconfident (as Frazier was, the press thought Foreman had no chance, they'd be the same if Ali was champ) or if he turned up for a Frazier rematch undertrained, any version of Norton causes him problems. A further Louis beating 17 defenses is a tough ask.......but to think he could have remained champion for 14 years in total is unlikely. Also, remember a loss can renew a boxer's motivation, give them renewed vigour. Ali could be prone to complacency......and it could have cost him his title at some point.

Ali is for me the best heavyweight that ever lived, my supreme boxing idol. But I dont want to delude myself that he could have pulled off such a feat. I just think we need to understand that he was human, he wasn't unhittable and it is more than possible that he'd have turned up for someone in the wrong frame of mind or physical condition. Or to possibly lose whilst picking up an unlucky injury.

Louis only averaged just over two defenses a year over his reign.......the war blunted his number of defenses and to be honest his opposition wasn't as good as Ali's. But I cant see Ali fighting 4-5 times a year and reigning for above 12 years any more than I could imagine Louis reigning for 12 years fighting even less skilled opposition 4-5 times a year.....someone would eventually get lucky!

Sugarj... from 1964 to 1978 Muhammad Ali lost 2 fights after having 43 months out of the ring he lost his 3rd comeback fight to Joe Frazier in FOTC beating Frazier so bad Joe spent a month in the hospital, referee Arthur Mercante said he would have scored the fight for Ali if he had not lay on the ropes clowning so much`... his 2nd lost was a `Split-Decision to Ken Norton in San Diego 1973 when Norton broke Ali`s jaw, Ali avenged both losses "Twice-Over" in the next 4yrs... Muhammad Ali was a 2 Time Heavyweight champion of the world between 1964-78 making 19 successful title defences, yet the best years of his career was cruelly taken from him, if Ali had never had that period taken from him and defended his title 3 times per year during that period he would have beaten Joe Louis record, it is quite feasible to assume that no matter who he fought in that period Ali would have been victorious, there would have been no reason for him to fight Norton 3 times other than Norton breaking his jaw and as i pointed out earlier Norton may well have struggled to get past other top contenders of that era, Foreman was beaten so easily by Ali that again i cannot see the reasoning for him to have been given a rematch, Ali lost to Spinks, Holmes & Berbick after 1978 which would not have mattered so much because he would have been the longest reigning champion with the most title defences... its easy to say this may have happened or that may have happened but the reality is that Muhammad Ali made 19 title defences in that time of the Heavyweight Championship of the World, throw in his defences of the NABF Heavyweight Title and Muhammad Ali easily beats Joe Louis record.

[Sugarj]

Hi Sonnyboyx, I'm an Ali nut, theres very little I dont know about the guy. As I've said he is my supreme idol.

I suppose its possible that Ali could have beaten Louis's 25 title defenses but not in one standing as champion, I think he would have picked up a loss somewhere. I think Ali's record is better than Louis's but I'm just keeping to the thread title.

To suggest that Ali, without being robbed of his prime years would have lasted 18 years straight......unbeaten as a pro, the last 14 as champion borders on the seriously unlikely. No one else came close to a record like that. A man's body is not built to last that long at the top in any world class athletic sport....let alone boxing.

The three and a half years exile, while robbing Ali of his best leg speed and reflexes will have allowed his mind and body to recuperate a bit. His muscles, joints, kidneys and mind will have benefitted in some ways a non athlete might not understand. Constant roadwork takes its toll on joints, bag work, abdominal work and sparring without due rest leaves an athlete prone to all sorts of injuries and can at least lead to an 'overtrained' syndrome, the pressure of preparing for multiple championship defenses in the publics eye is surely incredibly stressful and exhausting. Even for a man like Ali! A complacent Ali could easily have fallen into a stale or overtrained syndrome in 14 years as champion or picked up an injury.

We know that in the 70s Ali had tremendous hand problems, he complained after fighting Rudi Lubbers that it was more painful to throw a punch than to take one. Without a layoff he might have smashed his poor hands to smitherines long before 1978, cortisol and novocaine can deaden pain. But they dont repair a boxer's most useful tools.

The two losses between 1960 and 1978 to Frazier and Norton, for what its worth actually energised Ali, spurred him on to train harder for the returns, forced him to rest a few months. Sometimes an athlete needs something to scare or shock them into getting into peak form and I think even Ali would be found out at some point over those 18 years, if only due to stagnating at the top.

[Snopkins]

Norton was actually a top ten ranked contender at the time Ali faced him.Ali at the time was fighting every other month against top opposition to try and force a rematch out of frazier(took three years).


Ali already had a verbal agreement to fight Thad Spencer at the time he had just had his second title defense in three months since the start of 1967.