George Foreman, the Man who made the man that is falsely proclaimed as the man in box

[Foreman]

There are a few points in this post. Most agree that Ali's prime was'66-'67, but when people make a point about how great Ali was they use the Foreman fight as the holy grail. It's sort of like Elvis. Which Ali comes to mind, the fleet and fast '60's version or the slower heavier '70's version.

Ali was extremely fortunate to come along at a time when the were other legit fighters. How many times has an all time great been denegrated for not having fought another all time great fighter. That is what cemented Ali's legacy.

Foreman would have kicked Ali's ass in a rematch, hands down, no question. Even Ali knew this. From his win over Foreman up until Foreman's retirement, Ali fought: Chuck Wepner, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Joe Frazier, Jean-Pierre Coopman, Isao Aoki, Jimmy Young, Richard Dunn, Ken Norton and Alfred Evangilista(this fight happened just a few months after Foreman retirement, but was already signed). A couple of those guys I never even heard of. If Ali was the "greatest" he would have given a rematch. He fought several other fighters on more than one occasion, why was Foreman so special as to be excluded from that group? Because Ali knew he couldn't win a second time. It's as clear as day.

It's unfortunate that we never got to see a rematch. It's also unfortunate that Ali's refusal probably damaged a great career. Foreman had a hard tme dealing with the fact that Ali was ducking him for so long. Eventually it caught up to him and so did Jimmy Young. Who knows, we could have seen Foreman-Holmes in '78. We may have only had to see Leon Spinks for 2 minutes in '78

My final point is why are people so quick to make excuses for Foreman winning the title at 45, but overlook some of Ali's shortcomings. Winning the title at 45 is a bigger achievement. After all, Ali couldn't do it at 40.

[wmute]

McKay,

I wrote this for the other thread, but I will copy it here

-Ali's prime is around 74

NO

ali's prime was 64-67

this is a FACT:
he was faster and with better stamina than in the 70s and bigger than when he was 18-22

the fact that he won snd defended the title afterwards just does not change this, it just shows how great he was, even past his physical prime

sonny liston was all "f***ed up" and big george freaked out cos the fight was held in africa... So everytime ali beats someone it's because the someone is in deep psychological trouble...
either you just ali for some reason I don't know
or if you really think it's the case..
well I got news for you, brains matter in boxing, and note that I don't like leonard playing the ***** with hagler or jones circling around opponents and pot shotting them (but this is a way to win, too), but ali never bitched out of a fight at the negotiation table or fought like a ***** in the ring.

after the 3rd frazier fight he was done
he lost to spinks when he was 36.
and still managed to win back his title

-foreman is greater than ali... and ali just got lucky...

NO

even foreman rates ali above himself among all time HW greats and so do every boxing historian and most fans, except ppl like you who think tyson would ko ali.

all your comparing opposition arguments don't do much: ever heard of the saying "styles make fights", well maybe you did not know that frazier and even moreso norton were built up by futch to beat ali, and on the other hand of the spectrum cus d'amato used to show frazier-foreman to tyson, to show him the wrongest possible style to attack someone like foreman.

you also bring up the Lyle fights, I am not sure it's a grat idea:
foreman was knocked down twice and made the same mistake he made with ali: he punched too much, too soon. Only he was fighting a dumb slugger like him, who did not have ali's chin and witsand KOed him.
so what is that make you so sure that this was not to happen again in a rematch with ali?

as far as ali-lyle goes, (bs stoppage or not, haven't seen the fight in 3 years but it did not seem a bs stoppage at the time, but I will concede that my memory may fail) ali usually won most of the championship rounds ("ali's alley", not for nothing)


-foreman made ali what he is...

NO

he started calling himself the greatest after he beat sonny liston but who cares about what he called himself:
he was always the draw (and a legend because since the liston fights, winning against foreman gave him his second wave of glory), the marciano-ali computerized fights, all the who's better louis or ali barroom chat was older crap than the foreman fight, which just goes to show

[cple]

My final point is why are people so quick to make excuses for Foreman winning the title at 45, but overlook some of Ali's shortcomings. Winning the title at 45 is a bigger achievement. After all, Ali couldn't do it at 40.

When Ali was in his forties, the heavyweight champions were Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, and Mike Tyson. Think Foreman could've regained the title if he had to face that type of opposition? Nope.

In my opinion, proclaiming Foreman's comeback as the greatest of all-time is undeserving. Though very impressive, that accomplishment is nothing compared to Eder Jofre's comeback at the age of 37 to beat Jose Legra. Simply mind-blowing. 37 years old is absolutely ancient by lower-weight standards; and to do it against a great fighter of Legra's calibre one division above his best is ridiculous.

Also, a lot of you Ali detracters don't really give Ali credit for beating Foreman. You simply point to the assumption that Foreman would've beaten Ali in a rematch. It didn't happen. So what? Base Ali and Foreman on what happened, not what could've, should've, or would've happened.

[wmute]

There are a few points in this post. Most agree that Ali's prime was'66-'67, but when people make a point about how great Ali was they use the Foreman fight as the holy grail. It's sort of like Elvis. Which Ali comes to mind, the fleet and fast '60's version or the slower heavier '70's version.

Ali was extremely fortunate to come along at a time when the were other legit fighters. How many times has an all time great been denegrated for not having fought another all time great fighter. That is what cemented Ali's legacy.

Foreman would have kicked Ali's ass in a rematch, hands down, no question. Even Ali knew this. From his win over Foreman up until Foreman's retirement, Ali fought: Chuck Wepner, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Joe Frazier, Jean-Pierre Coopman, Isao Aoki, Jimmy Young, Richard Dunn, Ken Norton and Alfred Evangilista(this fight happened just a few months after Foreman retirement, but was already signed). A couple of those guys I never even heard of. If Ali was the "greatest" he would have given a rematch. He fought several other fighters on more than one occasion, why was Foreman so special as to be excluded from that group? Because Ali knew he couldn't win a second time. It's as clear as day.

It's unfortunate that we never got to see a rematch. It's also unfortunate that Ali's refusal probably damaged a great career. Foreman had a hard tme dealing with the fact that Ali was ducking him for so long. Eventually it caught up to him and so did Jimmy Young. Who knows, we could have seen Foreman-Holmes in '78. We may have only had to see Leon Spinks for 2 minutes in '78

My final point is why are people so quick to make excuses for Foreman winning the title at 45, but overlook some of Ali's shortcomings. Winning the title at 45 is a bigger achievement. After all, Ali couldn't do it at 40.

the foreman fight is used to show ali's greatness because ali beat foreman, and he wasn't even in his prime, I think it is a very logical argument.

as far as not giving a rematch, the only ppl ali rematched after winning the title back are frazier and norton, which both beat ali and gave him more problems than foreman, why should he immediately rematch foreman?
was it close? no

poor foreman he was so sad he lost to jimmy young, now don't get me wrong: foreman is a great fighter but the excuses you make for him are a bit lame.

and I have no if and but for george second reign: he won the lineal HW championship fair and square

[BadMagick]

of course foreman was better, if ali dare to open for 1 full round foreman would ko him but he didnt he was too smart for foreman. but i think the 60s ali would dance away and be too fast for foreman.

Stronger does not equal better.

I think calling McKay an idiot pretty much nullifies any response he can make.

[The Troll]

Muhammad ALi is so overrated, Sonny Liston was an opium addict or something when ALi fought him and took a dive the second time, and that is the shamefull way ALI won the title. Then Ali lost to a bunch of B class oponnents like Ken Norton in 1971, and Leon Spinks c class oponnent in 1978, and Ali was not ancient when he fought Spinks like you would like to make out he was like 35 or something. I will give him a free pass on the HOlmes fight even though he was only 38. Most of the heavyweights today are 38 and still fighting. Lennox was like 38 when he beat Klistchko.

And Ali was loosing without question on points to LYle but the ref came in and stopped the fight the first time ALI flurried is was a scam and ridiculous.



This is simply a fact

If Ali never beat Foreman there is no way you could possibly contend he was the greatest fighter ever, hence, Foreman is responsible for making Ali the legend he is so many of your minds.

Foreman would have KO'd ALI if they ever re-matched in good old Las Vegas at a regular venue. Without a buch of AFricans screaming die Foreman die in 100 degree heat. Ali can thank the African heat and climate for his victory over Foreman, that rope-a-dope style of his in the 70's was purely ***** ass. I will give credit to ALI though the guy did know how to coverup.

[wmute]

Sonny Liston was an opium addict or something when ALi fought him

hmm interesting I read "the devil and sonny liston", which is the most complete source of info about liston and the author (who still thinks liston threw BOTH fights), never even thinks that liston was on the needle by that time, but I guess you know better than nick tosches who spent years to find interviewing of friends and relatives of liston, cops and priests who knew him. gosh we are so lucky we can read your posts

If Ali never beat Foreman there is no way you could possibly contend he was the greatest fighter ever, hence, Foreman is responsible for making Ali the legend he is so many of your minds.

no, as i already wrote, in the 60s people were already imaginarily matching him up with joe louis and joe frazier
did beating foreman made him even better in the eyes of people? yes, but he was already considered one of the greatest hws ever

but dammit now I realize you don't even bother reading posts answering yours... norton and norton again and again, did you notice the awkward stance of norton with his right hand the way it was? why do you think it was like that? because Norton was trained to beat ali

and 36, like ali was when he fought spinks, was old for hws at the time, moreso for ali who did not rely on power as his main weapon and fought frazier for 41 rounds, shavers and foreman.

[The Troll]

hmm interesting I read "the devil and sonny liston", which is the most complete source of info about liston and the author (who still thinks liston threw BOTH fights), never even thinks that liston was on the needle by that time, but I guess you know better than nick tosches who spent years to find interviewing of friends and relatives of liston, cops and priests who knew him. gosh we are so lucky we can read your posts



no, as i already wrote, in the 60s people were already imaginarily matching him up with joe louis and joe frazier
did beating foreman made him even better in the eyes of people? yes, but he was already considered one of the greatest hws ever

but dammit now I realize you don't even bother reading posts answering yours... norton and norton again and again, did you notice the awkward stance of norton with his right hand the way it was? why do you think it was like that? because Norton was trained to beat ali

and 36, like ali was when he fought spinks, was old for hws at the time, moreso for ali who did not rely on power as his main weapon and fought frazier for 41 rounds, shavers and foreman.

your a pure nuthugger and you cannot possibly believe that nonsense you expouse. You deny Sonny Liston's drug problems and taking a dive in one of the fights. People though he was so great for beating LIston because they respect Liston so much, but LIston did not even care about boxing by the time he fought ALi.

What did Liston Accomplish after loosing to ALi? absolutely nothing he made bid for the NABF title and was knocked out in the 5th.

[chubb5000]

When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

Don't believe the hype dude, i kinda agree with you, i think ali is over rated too... please don't ban me

[Kid Achilles]

Ali not ancient when he fought Spinks? Put the crack pipe down; it's time for some rehab. Ali was not the same fighter he was in his prime as early as 1970. The Ali that fought Frazier in the first fight had already slowed down and so no longer as quick on his feet as he was against Liston and Cleveland Williams. This is a FACT, not my opinion. Ali by the Foreman fight was considered way over the hill. Most people didn't want that fight to happen because they feared for Ali's life. Watch "When We Were Kings" and you will see what guys like Cosell thought about Ali's chances.