Am I some newbie who's jumping the gun about Usyk's place on the Pantheon?

[Willow The Wisp]

I put this in the History section because this is where the best people gather. Most of the Boxing Scene posters that I respect the most, post here. And I want to communicate with you.


So.....
I was bedazzled yesterday, I confess it.


It wasn't THAT Oleksandr Usyk won against Daniel Dubois a second time to re-collect all the "accepted" sanctioning body belts and defend his word championship, but it was HOW he won.
He simply tore Dubois up! No contest.


I understand that Dubois has a few well demonstrated liabilities (For one, heavyweights of extreme muscularity often show a weaker punch resistance), but as his recent run shows; he is no joke. Not at all.


Usyk, at 38.5, is a Low, Low mileage vehicle, and has vowed to press onward in building his place in history.
I love that, because this was arguably his best career performance, and Usyk has shown how dominant he can be at a chiseled and robust 227.
He was big enough to be bigger than most of history's legendary heavyweights.

I dragged my feet, frankly; on recognition of how special he is. I've done this in the past; and indeed, with Ali himself, prior to 1974. I guess I'm a hard sell.


I want more. Of course I do. Perhaps 4 more at bats, in order, assuming he continues his dominance, to burnish his claim to greatness.
I want to see a legacy that reads somthing like:



2016
Krzysztof Glowacki..............W UD 12
Thabiso Mchunu..................W KO 9
2017
Michael Hunter.....................W UD 12
Marco Huck..........................W TKO 10
2018
Mairis Briedis........................W MD 12
Murat Gassiev.......................W UD 12
Tony Bellew...........................W TKO 8
2019
Chazz Witherspoon..............W TKO 7
2020
Derek Chisora........................W UD 12
2021
Anthony Joshua....................W UD 12
2022
Anthony Joshua....................W SD 12
2023
Daniel Dubois.........................KO 9
2024
Tyson Fury..............................SD 12
Tyson Fury..............................UD 12
2025
Daniel Dubois.........................KO 5
Joseph Parker........................TKO 11
2026
Zhilei Zhang...........................TKO 10
Agit Kabayel...........................W UD 12
2027
Moses Itauma........................TKO 12

Retire 28-0-0 (18)



Maybe I'm greedy. I simply want more from a 24 fight veteran, dispite his 335-15 amateur university.


But at this point; I am undoubtedly prepared to accept that almost no human ever would have beaten him under the Marquess of Queensberry rules of hand to hand combat. Not the guy I watched yesterday.


Greatest vs. Best:
I have complex criteria for the former and a straightforward "best analytical guess" approach to the latter.

It may be semantics to anybody bothering to read this far, but for me; It's hard to forget the massive impact that heroes like Sullivan, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmelling, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Klitschko and even Fury have had on the world, to varying degrees. Some whose works extended their influence far beyond the ring.


My list (what's a post from me without a list?), would be a highly subjective amalgamation of Greatest and Best ranking of modern boxing's heavyweights:


So my question, then; posed to my friends here, is; have I gone insane? Am I jumping the proverbial gun here?


Please; straighten me out!
Forget my force rankings as a whole for a moment. Have I gone bonkers for Usyk?


1. Muhammad Ali
2. Oleksandr Usyk
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Jack Johnson
6. George Foreman
7. Larry Holmes
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Sonny Liston
12. Mike Tyson
13. Joe Frazier
14. Gene Tunney
15. Tyson Fury
16. James J. Jeffries
17. Sam Langford
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Evander Holyfield
20. Harry Wills
21. John L. Sullivan
22. Joe Jeanette
23. Ken Norton
24. Rid**** Bowe
25. Vitali Klitschko
26. Max Baer
27. James J. Corbett
28. Anthony Joshua
29. Max Schmelling
30. Peter Jackson
31. Sam McVey
32. Deontay Wilder
33. Sailor Tom Sharkey
34. Jerry Quarry
35. Luther McCarty
36. Jersey Joe Walcott
37. Cleveland Williams
38. Ron Lyle
39. Zora Folly
40. George Godfrey
41. Earnie Shavers
42. Jimmy Ellis
43. Floyd Patterson
44. Jimmy Young
45. Jess Willard
46. Tommy Gibbons
47. Eddie Machen
48. Gerry Cooney
49. Joseph Parker
50. Ike Ibeabuchi

[GhostofDempsey]

Usyk has secured his legacy as a top ten all-time HW and CW. I think the most difficult argument to make is quality of opposition. Joshua was a good win considering his size and power, but he isn’t a highly skilled fighter. Nor is Dubois, Chisora, or even Fury in all honesty. But we have to give credit where it is due, he overcame physical disadvantages and beat them all. Outboxed some good opponents at CW and had a stellar amateur career.

How would he perform in mythical match ups with Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Ali, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Louis, etc? That can be argued until our fingertips fall off just like all the other topics on here. He would be competitive in any era, and favored to beat many of them in my opinion. Would love to see a cruiserweight match between Holyfield and Usyk.

[BKM-]

Well, he's got a lot going for him. He already had a splendid amateur and CW career so he went into HW very late and with a big size disadvantage, so skills were very crucial for him.

He's lucky to have been in this era and not the lower quality era's of the past since Lennox. Joshua and Fury are good/great HW's, and beating both of them clearly twice with no controversy is a tremendous achievement. He collected the belts by force and is the undisputed lineal HW champ of the world. In this century that is top class.

Too bad he couldn't get a prime Wilder on his resume. If he keeps getting quality wins like last night, Parker, Chisora etc. He'll end up with a strong claim for top 10 HW and trust me that is not as easy as it may sound to some. There have been a lot of truly great HW's who are all top 10 worthy.

[max baer]

I put this in the History section because this is where the best people gather. Most of the Boxing Scene posters that I respect the most, post here. And I want to communicate with you.


So.....
I was bedazzled yesterday, I confess it.


It wasn't THAT Oleksandr Usyk won against Daniel Dubois a second time to re-collect all the "accepted" sanctioning body belts and defend his word championship, but it was HOW he won.
He simply tore Dubois up! No contest.


I understand that Dubois has a few well demonstrated liabilities (For one, heavyweights of extreme muscularity often show a weaker punch resistance), but as his recent run shows; he is no joke. Not at all.


Usyk, at 38.5, is a Low, Low mileage vehicle, and has vowed to press onward in building his place in history.
I love that, because this was arguably his best career performance, and Usyk has shown how dominant he can be at a chiseled and robust 227.
He was big enough to be bigger than most of history's legendary heavyweights.

I dragged my feet, frankly; on recognition of how special he is. I've done this in the past; and indeed, with Ali himself, prior to 1974. I guess I'm a hard sell.


I want more. Of course I do. Perhaps 4 more at bats, in order, assuming he continues his dominance, to burnish his claim to greatness.
I want to see a legacy that reads somthing like:



2016
Krzysztof Glowacki..............W UD 12
Thabiso Mchunu..................W KO 9
2017
Michael Hunter.....................W UD 12
Marco Huck..........................W TKO 10
2018
Mairis Briedis........................W MD 12
Murat Gassiev.......................W UD 12
Tony Bellew...........................W TKO 8
2019
Chazz Witherspoon..............W TKO 7
2020
Derek Chisora........................W UD 12
2021
Anthony Joshua....................W UD 12
2022
Anthony Joshua....................W SD 12
2023
Daniel Dubois.........................KO 9
2024
Tyson Fury..............................SD 12
Tyson Fury..............................UD 12
2025
Daniel Dubois.........................KO 5
Joseph Parker........................TKO 11
2026
Zhilei Zhang...........................TKO 10
Agit Kabayel...........................W UD 12
2027
Moses Itauma........................TKO 12

Retire 28-0-0 (18)



Maybe I'm greedy. I simply want more from a 24 fight veteran, dispite his 335-15 amateur university.


But at this point; I am undoubtedly prepared to accept that almost no human ever would have beaten him under the Marquess of Queensberry rules of hand to hand combat. Not the guy I watched yesterday.


Greatest vs. Best:
I have complex criteria for the former and a straightforward "best analytical guess" approach to the latter.

It may be semantics to anybody bothering to read this far, but for me; It's hard to forget the massive impact that heroes like Sullivan, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmelling, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Klitschko and even Fury have had on the world, to varying degrees. Some whose works extended their influence far beyond the ring.


My list (what's a post from me without a list?), would be a highly subjective amalgamation of Greatest and Best ranking of modern boxing's heavyweights:


So my question, then; posed to my friends here, is; have I gone insane? Am I jumping the proverbial gun here?


Please; straighten me out!
Forget my force rankings as a whole for a moment. Have I gone bonkers for Usyk?


1. Muhammad Ali
2. Oleksandr Usyk
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Jack Johnson
6. George Foreman
7. Larry Holmes
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Sonny Liston
12. Mike Tyson
13. Joe Frazier
14. Gene Tunney
15. Tyson Fury
16. James J. Jeffries
17. Sam Langford
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Evander Holyfield
20. Harry Wills
21. John L. Sullivan
22. Joe Jeanette
23. Ken Norton
24. Rid**** Bowe
25. Vitali Klitschko
26. Max Baer
27. James J. Corbett
28. Anthony Joshua
29. Max Schmelling
30. Peter Jackson
31. Sam McVey
32. Deontay Wilder
33. Sailor Tom Sharkey
34. Jerry Quarry
35. Luther McCarty
36. Jersey Joe Walcott
37. Cleveland Williams
38. Ron Lyle
39. Zora Folly
40. George Godfrey
41. Earnie Shavers
42. Jimmy Ellis
43. Floyd Patterson
44. Jimmy Young
45. Jess Willard
46. Tommy Gibbons
47. Eddie Machen
48. Gerry Cooney
49. Joseph Parker
50. Ike Ibeabuchi

extremely well written willow. i feel the same. i need time to digest things last night. amazing skill!

[DeeMoney]

First off, in regards to greatest vs best definition, for most people greatest is defined by accumulated accomplishments whereas best is your overall quality during your prime (how good were you). I just don't care for that, to me greatest carries more weight with it as far as a term, everyone talks about the GOAT nobody talks about the BOAT.

But I don't like that, as I prefer to debate who was actually better as opposed to who had the best resume- as resume and accomplishments are often times a result of things outside your control (this just inst in boxing, but in all sports). For example, if Usyk was the absolute very best heavyweight ever, and retired right now, he would not be the GOAT because he did not have all the great heavies available to him that others did. There is no prim Frazier, Foreman, or near prime Liston for him to beat. Essentially, no matter how great Usyk may be, he won't have the opportunity to accumulate a GOAT resume. To me thats not right, and stands in opposition to what we want to evaluate and discuss.

So, as to discuss how good Usyk actually is. He is arguably the greatest cruiserweight that ever lived- focusing only since the division has been in existence for now. This goes back nearly 50 years, and only really Holyfield can put up a challenge. I would say the same thing about him being the best in the ring for cruisers.
As far as how good he is as a heavyweight, I think you can make an argument for him being a top 5 heavyweight based on how good he is and what you see- but I'd like to see more of a sample size to make a more accurate evaluation. Which is difficult because he's up there in age and may not be able to provide that. As for now, if you had all the top 20 heavyweights ever fight each other multiple times (at their heavyweight bests) I'd probably favor him to have a winning record when all is said and done. And thats pretty good.

[BKM-]

Lets not lose a little perspective on longevity here. There's 4 men who had 20+ title defences, and atleast 5 more who had atleast 10. All have their own context but it's often easy to get caught up in the moment.

[DeeMoney]

Lets not lose a little perspective on longevity here. There's 4 men who had 20+ title defences, and atleast 5 more who had atleast 10. All have their own context but it's often easy to get caught up in the moment.

I think this is a big part in regards to difference of opinion and what we evaluate. Some people value longevity more than peak and prime, others vice versa. There is no way that Usyk will match the longevity of some of the ATGs, so if thats something you highly value, he just won't come up to snuff.

[BKM-]

I think this is a big part in regards to difference of opinion and what we evaluate. Some people value longevity more than peak and prime, others vice versa. There is no way that Usyk will match the longevity of some of the ATGs, so if thats something you highly value, he just won't come up to snuff.

Personally yes, though resume is above all to me. Between one who defended the title 10x vs the one who did it 15x, the former can still be the greater fighter if he faced better quality of opponents.

I don't find Joe Louis' quality of resume impressive, but I can't get around the 25 title defences. He has to have a high place on the list no matter how I look at it.

[Bronson66]

I put this in the History section because this is where the best people gather. Most of the Boxing Scene posters that I respect the most, post here. And I want to communicate with you.


So.....
I was bedazzled yesterday, I confess it.


It wasn't THAT Oleksandr Usyk won against Daniel Dubois a second time to re-collect all the "accepted" sanctioning body belts and defend his word championship, but it was HOW he won.
He simply tore Dubois up! No contest.


I understand that Dubois has a few well demonstrated liabilities (For one, heavyweights of extreme muscularity often show a weaker punch resistance), but as his recent run shows; he is no joke. Not at all.


Usyk, at 38.5, is a Low, Low mileage vehicle, and has vowed to press onward in building his place in history.
I love that, because this was arguably his best career performance, and Usyk has shown how dominant he can be at a chiseled and robust 227.
He was big enough to be bigger than most of history's legendary heavyweights.

I dragged my feet, frankly; on recognition of how special he is. I've done this in the past; and indeed, with Ali himself, prior to 1974. I guess I'm a hard sell.


I want more. Of course I do. Perhaps 4 more at bats, in order, assuming he continues his dominance, to burnish his claim to greatness.
I want to see a legacy that reads somthing like:



2016
Krzysztof Glowacki..............W UD 12
Thabiso Mchunu..................W KO 9
2017
Michael Hunter.....................W UD 12
Marco Huck..........................W TKO 10
2018
Mairis Briedis........................W MD 12
Murat Gassiev.......................W UD 12
Tony Bellew...........................W TKO 8
2019
Chazz Witherspoon..............W TKO 7
2020
Derek Chisora........................W UD 12
2021
Anthony Joshua....................W UD 12
2022
Anthony Joshua....................W SD 12
2023
Daniel Dubois.........................KO 9
2024
Tyson Fury..............................SD 12
Tyson Fury..............................UD 12
2025
Daniel Dubois.........................KO 5
Joseph Parker........................TKO 11
2026
Zhilei Zhang...........................TKO 10
Agit Kabayel...........................W UD 12
2027
Moses Itauma........................TKO 12

Retire 28-0-0 (18)



Maybe I'm greedy. I simply want more from a 24 fight veteran, dispite his 335-15 amateur university.


But at this point; I am undoubtedly prepared to accept that almost no human ever would have beaten him under the Marquess of Queensberry rules of hand to hand combat. Not the guy I watched yesterday.


Greatest vs. Best:
I have complex criteria for the former and a straightforward "best analytical guess" approach to the latter.

It may be semantics to anybody bothering to read this far, but for me; It's hard to forget the massive impact that heroes like Sullivan, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmelling, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Klitschko and even Fury have had on the world, to varying degrees. Some whose works extended their influence far beyond the ring.


My list (what's a post from me without a list?), would be a highly subjective amalgamation of Greatest and Best ranking of modern boxing's heavyweights:


So my question, then; posed to my friends here, is; have I gone insane? Am I jumping the proverbial gun here?


Please; straighten me out!
Forget my force rankings as a whole for a moment. Have I gone bonkers for Usyk?


1. Muhammad Ali
2. Oleksandr Usyk
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Jack Johnson
6. George Foreman
7. Larry Holmes
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Wladimir Klitschko
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Sonny Liston
12. Mike Tyson
13. Joe Frazier
14. Gene Tunney
15. Tyson Fury
16. James J. Jeffries
17. Sam Langford
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Evander Holyfield
20. Harry Wills
21. John L. Sullivan
22. Joe Jeanette
23. Ken Norton
24. Rid**** Bowe
25. Vitali Klitschko
26. Max Baer
27. James J. Corbett
28. Anthony Joshua
29. Max Schmelling
30. Peter Jackson
31. Sam McVey
32. Deontay Wilder
33. Sailor Tom Sharkey
34. Jerry Quarry
35. Luther McCarty
36. Jersey Joe Walcott
37. Cleveland Williams
38. Ron Lyle
39. Zora Folly
40. George Godfrey
41. Earnie Shavers
42. Jimmy Ellis
43. Floyd Patterson
44. Jimmy Young
45. Jess Willard
46. Tommy Gibbons
47. Eddie Machen
48. Gerry Cooney
49. Joseph Parker
50. Ike Ibeabuchi

If Usyk defends against ,and beats Parker,I will have to give serious thought to putting him in my ATG top ten.

[max baer]

The amazing thing is the fact he comes from light heavy. And he doesn't have the look of a champion in my mind he looks too slight. This demonstrates that boxing is an art of skill and muscles just wont do against skill in the noble art.