Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[QueensburyRules]

No they didn't give him a penny this is an old Wive's tale that casuals like you like to repeat.

The NSC not the British NC,got Johnson to sign to fight Langford in early1908 for a small purse,whether he beat Burns or not.The fight was to take place in February 1909.Johnson won the title on Boxing Day1908.

I'm not going too fast for you am I?

Once he had won the title Johnson declared he wanted the same amount to defend it as Burns had received to defend against him.


The NSC didnt offer a quarter of that.So Johnson said **** You! Simple As!

- - I'll stick wif what my AOL buds and I ascertained about JJohnson who also ran out on a slew of prostit utes he called his wives.

[Bronson66]

- - I'll stick wif what my AOL buds and I ascertained about JJohnson who also ran out on a slew of prostit utes he called his wives.

Are you under the delusion anyone GAGF what your opinion is about anything?LOL

[Willie Pep 229]

There you have it, they think McVey with less than ten fights to his name at 19 years old was one of Johnson's five best wins. Jeannette with less than 20 fights and nearly a losing record was also a great win. a 21 year old Langford at 156 pounds giving up nearly seven inches in height and about 35 pounds in weight was also a great win. Burns, a mere middleweight also a great win. Best of all Jeffries, coming off a six year retirement and having to lose nearly 100 pounds. This is what passes for greatness around here, LOL.

Imagine if Usyk's best wins to date were a 19 year old novice with less than ten fights, a middleweight, a super-middleweight, a novice with less than 20 fights and a losing record and a former champ who was inactive for six years while losing a third of his body weight?

I'm still trying to understand why out of one side of their mouth they say Sam Langford was a lesser god who made white fighters tremble; but out of the other side of their mouth they say he wasn't competitive against Jack Johnson.

It seems Langford's prowess waxes and wanes as needed, per argument.

[Dr Z]

Well we can agree to disagree. I've already stated my reasons for my list.

Do you have any contemporary source for Burns being sick? I've been looking and can't find a single thing. What you posted was him looking yellow which made people think he could have been sick, and then something from AI which is not a good source. I've tried to use AI to do research and it has occasionally given me answers based on some of my own posts here as its source. It's not very reliable.

I don't want to get into a whole song and dance with you ducking and dodging. Just wondering if you have any contemporary source for it.


Also, since you mentioned it, What are Dempsey's best 5 wins and how do they compare to Johnsons?


By the way, you should also mention that the Jeannette win was a DQ in round 2 or something like that.

Also, Langford apparently was 23, not 20. I find it very odd you would add Gardner and not Langford, who was in twice with Jeannette before Johnson beat him.

A premier historian of early black prize ( Kevin Smith ) fighters says Burs was suffering something like a Jaundice.



What higher source do you wish to see? I gave you the page #'s of a book .




The modern day expert on Sam Langford, Clay Moyle researched Sam's birthday and say is 20. Do I have to find pages of his book for you too?


This is a Jack Johnson tread, and bringing other fighters in the mix that have nothing to do with him or his ranking / the best fighters he beat ...Well I am going to stick to the thread.


I suggest you start a new thread. I am 100% sure Jack beat better fighters. That is Dempsey. I say this by studying the ring record ages, and weights of his opponents beaten when he fought them. I list his best 5 wins there.

[Dr Z]

Bronson
Denver Ed Martin was 15-1-1 that's17 fights.Johnson had had 19, 2 more. Martin was 23lbs heavier than Johnson.

Their second fight Martin had 21 fights ,Johnson29.

Langford had 56 fights to his name when he fought 46 fight Johnson, Sam had beaten Jeannette over 15 rds, 20 days earlier.

Moran v Johnson was not a close fight at all.
"When the fight took place, before a fashionable audience at the Vélodrome d'Hiver, McKetrick saw he had been terribly mistaken about Moran's chances. It was true that Johnson was not in first-rate condition, but his superlative defense held up, and he was able to evade the dreaded Mary Ann and give Moran a severe beating without the full use of his left arm." From "Jack And The Game" by Finis Farr, Sports Illustrated, June 22, 1959:

• The St. Petersburg Daily Times reported the following on June 28, 1914:

"The battle was hard fought, but Johnson won easily. Moran was game and stubborn and did most of the leading. Johnson's superior skill was effective and his upper-cutting wore Moran down and won the contest. . . . There were no knockdowns, or anything resembling a finishing blow in the fight. At the close Moran's face was bleeding from a cut under the nose and left eye. Johnson showed no marks."

Johnson badly injured his right hand in this fight and attributed it to him wearing 4 ounce gloves instead of 5 ounce ones.Johnson signed to fight Langford in Paris for $30,000 and 50% of the motion picture rights. shortly after this fight, the fight to take place in mid October Two things killed this fight,the would be promoters couldn't come up with the money and the day after the Moran fight Arch Duke Ferdinand was assassinated prompting the onset of WW1

I listed Martin as Jonhson's second best win.

As I said Langford was only 20 and new to fighting heavyweights.

Moran was nothing special. But he was a heavyweight, had experience, and likey would be 6-10th ranked by Ring Magazine if it was around then. LOOK at the films. The fight is slightly in Johnson's favor on the 20+ minutes footage shown on You Tube.

Now are you going to Jacks' his best five wins taking in consideration the age, working conditions, weights and experience level? I listed mine. You avoid that topic of of shame.

[Bronson66]

I listed Martin as Jonhson's second best win.

As I said Langford was only 20 and new to fighting heavyweights.

Moran was nothing special. But he was a heavyweight, had experience, and likey would be 6-10th ranked by Ring Magazine if it was around then. LOOK at the films. The fight is slightly in Johnson's favor on the 20+ minutes footage shown on You Tube.

Now are you going to Jacks' his best five wins taking in consideration the age, working conditions, weights and experience level? I listed mine. You avoid that topic of of shame.

I'll take contemporary fight reports over edited highlights every time.

The question posed by the OP is;

"Who Actually Beats Johnson At His Absolute Prime ?"
So how about you have the courtesy to answer that question instead of juxtaposing your own one in its place?

[Dr Z]

I'll take contemporary fight reports over edited highlights every time.

The question posed by the OP is;

"Who Actually Beats A Prime Johnson?"
So how about you have the courtesy to answer that question instead of juxtaposing your own one in its place?

I will take a film of the fight over somelese write up of one.

Who Actually Beats A Prime Johnson? A lot of guys. Johnson's numerous losses and draw combined with the fact that he did not fight the best contenders while while champion from 1909-1914 leaves us with his best five wins to answer that question. I explored that.

Compare his best 5 wins to another contender or champion. Why don't you?. He comes up short.

Now, are you going to list Johsnon's best five wins in your opinion?

[Willie Pep 229]

I'll take contemporary fight reports over edited highlights every time.

The question posed by the OP is;

"Who Actually Beats A Prime Johnson?"
So how about you have the courtesy to answer that question instead of juxtaposing your own one in its place?

No, it actually reads: Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

My 'absolute prime' was 18 YOA -- 5' 7" 142 lbs.

I wouldn't have lasted two minutes with Johnson at my 'absolute prime.'

Real Answer: I think any of the lineal champions after Willard could beat a prime Johnson; and Johnson could also beat any of them.

Take that answer seriously. Johnson has the size and skill level to compete in any era, but he was inconsistent enough to lose on any given night.

It's OK to have a bad day with Flynn or Hart, but not with Louis or Marciano. You don't get away with that.

[Bronson66]

I will take a film of the fight over somelese write up of one.

Who Actually Beats A Prime Johnson? A lot of guys. Johnson's numerous losses and draw combined with the fact that he did not fight the best contenders while while champion from 1909-1914 leaves us with his best five wins to answer that question. I explored that.

Compare his best 5 wins to another contender or champion. Why don't you?. He comes up short.

Now, are you going to list Johsnon's best five wins in your opinion?

You'll take edited highlights over ringside reporters who saw the whole fight?lol

[Bronson66]

No, it actually reads: Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

My 'absolute prime' was 18 YOA -- 5' 7" 142 lbs.

I wouldn't have lasted two minutes with Johnson at my 'absolute prime.'

Real Answer: I think any of the lineal champions after Willard could beat a prime Johnson; and Johnson could also beat any of them.

Take that answer seriously. Johnson has the size and skill level to compete in any era, but he was inconsistent enough to lose on any given night.

It's OK to have a bad day with Flynn or Hart, but not with Louis or Marciano. You don't get away with that.

Okay I'll edit it to the correct wording , not that it makes a scrap of difference, its just you being pedantic.

Q. Who Actually Did Beat Him When He Was In His Absolute Prime?

A. Nobody.

Unbeaten from1908 to 1915.