Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[them_apples]

Johnson floored Langford 3 times for long nine counts,broke his nose and cut his eye.

That's a pretty decisive beating imo.

"Johnson handed me the only real beating I ever took.! Sam Langford.
Johnson wanted $30,000 and only two promoters ever came up with the money.
McIntosh for Johnson to defend against both Langford and McVey in Australia, Johnson signed the contract

The McMahon Brothers for Johnson to defend against Jeannette in NY.Johnson signed the contract.

This is in Pollack's 2nd Vol on Johnson, "The Reign."

Yeah this was an easy one:

Johnson beat Langford up and Langford was the one who told everyone, thats how we know

but being self admitted, it just shows Langfords character- I don’t doubt he improved and learned from the match - as well as matured physically.

I believe he called Johnson a “smooth operator” which brings light to his style as the frame rates improve with AI upscaling.

[Bronson66]

Yeah this was an easy one:

Johnson beat Langford up and Langford was the one who told everyone, thats how we know

but being self admitted, it just shows Langfords character- I don�t doubt he improved and learned from the match - as well as matured physically.

I believe he called Johnson a �smooth operator� which brings light to his style as the frame rates improve with AI upscaling.

Yes of course he matured physically, how much he improved we can only guess,he had already had 56 fights,that's a long career today.

[Dr Z]

By the way, already told you my opinion.

Burns, Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and I’ll throw in Jeffries at the end just to ruffle your feathers.

Making the Jack Johson's top five wins requires more than being a casual fan as he was born at the right time, meaning his most famous wins are either very young , green/ and-inexperienced at heavyweight , a light weight ( Below 170 ), or way past their primes if one examines the conditions when they fought! Once you understand and admit the above, you can properly rate his wins.


It is perhaps the weakest list of all famous heavyweight champions.

Nevertheless, here are his best five wins in my opinion:


#1. Tommy Burns Record when he fought Johnson 44-3-8 . Age 27. 5'7 168 pounds, Reports say he was ill but he was champion, in his prime. IMO this is Johsnon's best filmed fight.


#2 Denver Ed Martin. Record when he fought Johnson. 15-1-1. The string beaned Martin, who was only 21 years old, but held wins over Childs, Armstrong Griffin, and Craig. He was tested
" Martin was ahead on points after 10 rounds. Johnson had Martin down 4 times in the 11th round, but couldn't finish him. According to the San Francisco Call, the fight was even from the 14th round to the finish." Martin had a glass jaw and weak body, but there is no doubt he could move and jab. For the colored heavyweight title.


#3 Joe Jeanette. Record when he fought Johnson. 10-10-1 age 27. Jeannette is the owner of a win and a draw over Johnson ( better than Langford who was 20 and Mcvey who was 19 ) was rapidly improving. His last fight with Johnson was a draw. But Johsnon did defeat him a few times too. As such he makes the list as a top 5 opponent.


#4 Frank Moran.Record when he fought Johnson. 26-9-4. Age 27. Moran was in his prime and a heavyweight over 200 pounds , but lost to MCcarty and Smith ( the best two " white hopes " which did not fight Johsnon for his title ) The filmed fight is fairly close vs a past his prime, but still functional Johnson lands him here.


#5 George Gardner.Record when he fought Johnson. 32-3-3. Age 25. Only 155 vs JJ pounds, he managed to beat Jack Root and Joe Walcott. and Craig before


Does anyone think Larry Homles best five wins include Ali? I did not list Jeffries because he has not fought in six year, was old, and has to lose a lot of weight. No one wins under these circumstances vs a prime opponent who is champion.

Langford was only 20 and had few opponents above 160 lbs. He was listed at 156 for Johnson.

[Bronson66]

Yeah I know about that.

My question was, if he was dominate and he knew the fight would be popular (in France) why not grab the easy Langford fight?

As the story stands right now, he beat the guy easy, a fight was offered for good money in France, he didn't want the fight.

Logicaly speaking one of the above must be wrong. You don't walk away from an easy payday.

He was never offered his $30,000 asking price for a title defense against either Langford or McVey anywhere but in Australia.

Beating Langford easily in1906 is a different proposition to beating him from 1908 when he Johnson was champion, onwards .

Prime for prime Clay Moyle who has written an excellent biography of Langford,believes Johnson beats Langford,

John L Sullivan said Langford would lose to Jack too, but would a dissipated, ill trained, Johnson, who did not live the life, beat an in shape 175/180lbs Langford ?

Who has suggested that a rematch between Johnson and Langford a few years later would be another walk over for Johnson?

Johnson was getting over $30,000 for defending against Ketchel and Flynn in the States,why would he risk defending against a much more dangerous opponent in Langford in France for $10,000 less?

Johnson was beating the White Hopes the racists kept pushing his way,beating them easily, and getting very well paid for it,without having to put his aging frame through a tortuous training regimen,to attain the sort of conditioning he would have needed to be in to beat his three fellow black adversaries.

Why would he risk travelling to another country where his challengers were extremely popular, pay his travelling and training expenses out of his purse , train like he never trained for any of his defences except for Jeffries,just to take a ,reduced by a third, purse?

You mentioned logic ,well tell me where the logic is in that?

The only promoters who were eventually prepared to give Johnson his asking price of $30,000 to defend against one of the black trio,[Jeannette,] in the States were the McMahon's ,and the NYAC , in the city where Jeannette was most popular vetoed the fight and threatened any promoter who dared to put it on with the withdrawal of his NY license.
The three major US promoters of the era were.
Rickard
Curley
Coffroth

They are on public record as saying, "two blacks fighting for the Heavyweight title in the US wouldn't draw flies"

Johnson turned down offers of $10,000,$15,000,and $20,000 to defend against Jeannette in Paris,but when the offer was increased to $30,000 to fight him in the US he accepted. Where is the contradiction in his actions there?

Let me put a case here if I may.
Usyk is offered $1000,000 to defend against Parker or $ 3000,000 to defend against Whyte, which would he take?

If you were Usyk which would you take?


Every couple of weeks somebody states Johnson avoided his most dangerous challengers, they make this statement without ever taking the trouble to do any actual research into it .

One poster in particular has made a career out of a hating crusade against Johnson.

The astonishing fact is this same poster gives his idol JimJeffries a complete pass for avoiding his own black challengers.Consistent?

Sullivan
Corbett
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Hart
Heavyweight Vanilla Champions .

All drew the colour line as champion,but that's okay, let's just beat up on Jack Johnson because he wanted top dollar to defend against his black challengers,who by the way were certainly also among his most dangerous ones.

Just as Jackson was to Sullivan and Corbett,before Jeffries came along.
and Johnson,Martin, and McVey were to Jeffries.

Jeffries turned down a good guaranteed purses to fight McVey,and Martin, and took considerably less in defences against no hopers like Finnegan and Munroe.
Disgusted with his purse for Munroe, he retired whilst is his prime.


How many on this thread have addressed the original subject.


Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime ?
And how many have eagerly used it as an excuse to just dump on Johnson?

[travestyny]

Making the Jack Johson's top five wins requires more than being a casual fan as he was born at the right time, meaning his most famous wins are either very young , green/ and-inexperienced at heavyweight , a light weight ( Below 170 ), or way past their primes if one examines the conditions when they fought! Once you understand and admit the above, you can properly rate his wins.


It is perhaps the weakest list of all famous heavyweight champions.

Nevertheless, here are his best five wins in my opinion:


#1. Tommy Burns Record when he fought Johnson 44-3-8 . Age 27. 5'7 168 pounds, Reports say he was ill but he was champion, in his prime. IMO this is Johsnon's best filmed fight.


#2 Denver Ed Martin. Record when he fought Johnson. 15-1-1. The string beaned Martin, who was only 21 years old, but held wins over Childs, Armstrong Griffin, and Craig. He was tested
" Martin was ahead on points after 10 rounds. Johnson had Martin down 4 times in the 11th round, but couldn't finish him. According to the San Francisco Call, the fight was even from the 14th round to the finish." Martin had a glass jaw and weak body, but there is no doubt he could move and jab. For the colored heavyweight title.


#3 Joe Jeanette. Record when he fought Johnson. 10-10-1 age 27. Jeannette is the owner of a win and a draw over Johnson ( better than Langford who was 20 and Mcvey who was 19 ) was rapidly improving. His last fight with Johnson was a draw. But Johsnon did defeat him a few times too. As such he makes the list as a top 5 opponent.


#4 Frank Moran.Record when he fought Johnson. 26-9-4. Age 27. Moran was in his prime and a heavyweight over 200 pounds , but lost to MCcarty and Smith ( the best two " white hopes " which did not fight Johsnon for his title ) The filmed fight is fairly close vs a past his prime, but still functional Johnson lands him here.


#5 George Gardner.Record when he fought Johnson. 32-3-3. Age 25. Only 155 vs JJ pounds, he managed to beat Jack Root and Joe Walcott. and Craig before


Does anyone think Larry Homles best five wins include Ali? I did not list Jeffries because he has not fought in six year, was old, and has to lose a lot of weight. No one wins under these circumstances vs a prime opponent who is champion.

Langford was only 20 and had few opponents above 160 lbs. He was listed at 156 for Johnson.

Well we can agree to disagree. I've already stated my reasons for my list.

Do you have any contemporary source for Burns being sick? I've been looking and can't find a single thing. What you posted was him looking yellow which made people think he could have been sick, and then something from AI which is not a good source. I've tried to use AI to do research and it has occasionally given me answers based on some of my own posts here as its source. It's not very reliable.

I don't want to get into a whole song and dance with you ducking and dodging. Just wondering if you have any contemporary source for it.


Also, since you mentioned it, What are Dempsey's best 5 wins and how do they compare to Johnsons?


By the way, you should also mention that the Jeannette win was a DQ in round 2 or something like that.

Also, Langford apparently was 23, not 20. I find it very odd you would add Gardner and not Langford, who was in twice with Jeannette before Johnson beat him.

[Bronson66]

Well we can agree to disagree. I've already stated my reasons for my list.

Do you have any contemporary source for Burns being sick? I've been looking and can't find a single thing. What you posted was him looking yellow which made people think he could have been sick, and then something from AI which is not a good source. I've tried to use AI to do research and it has occasionally given me answers based on some of my own posts here as its source. It's not very reliable.

I don't want to get into a whole song and dance with you ducking and dodging. Just wondering if you have any contemporary source for it.


Also, since you mentioned it, What are Dempsey's best 5 wins and how do they compare to Johnsons?

It might be amusing to do a Jeffries 5 best wins?

Didn't Champion Fitzsimmons age 36 come out of 2 years inactivity to defend against Jeffries.and wasn't he conceding39lbs to him?
Didn't 39 years old Fitzsimmons come out of 2 years retirement to challenge Jeffries ,and wasnt he conceding 47lbs to him?

Didn't Corbett , 33 years old come out of 3 years retirement to challengeJeffries,having not won a fight for 6 years,and wasnt he conceding 27lbs to him?

Didn't Corbett, now 36 years old,come out of 2years retirement having had 5 rounds of ring action in that time, in a fight that may have been fixed, to challenge Jeffries again,and wasn't he conceding 30lbs to him?

Wasn't Joe Goddard 40 years old when Jeffries fought him?

Wasn't Peter Jackson 36 years old, tubercular, alcoholic, and retired for 6 years when he fought Jeffries?

[travestyny]

It might be amusing to do a Jeffries 5 best wins?

Didn't Champion Fitzsimmons age 36 come out of 2 years inactivity to defend against Jeffries.and wasn't he conceding39lbs to him?
Didn't 39 years old Fitzsimmons come out of 2 years retirement to challenge Jeffries ,and wasnt he conceding 47lbs to him?

Didn't Corbett , 33 years old come out of 3 years retirement to challengeJeffries,having not won a fight for 6 years,and wasnt he conceding 27lbs to him?

Didn't Corbett, now 36 years old,come out of 2years retirement having had 5 rounds of ring action in that time, in a fight that may have been fixed, to challenge Jeffries again,and wasn't he conceding 30lbs to him?

Wasn't Joe Goddard 40 years old when Jeffries fought him?

Wasn't Peter Jackson 36 years old, tubercular, alcoholic, and retired for 6 years when he fought Jeffries?

What are your thoughts, Dr Z

[QueensburyRules]

He was never offered his $30,000 asking price for a title defense against either Langford or McVey anywhere but in Australia.

Beating Langford easily in1906 is a different proposition to beating him from 1908 when he Johnson was champion, onwards .

Prime for prime Clay Moyle who has written an excellent biography of Langford,believes Johnson beats Langford,

John L Sullivan said Langford would lose to Jack too, but would a dissipated, ill trained, Johnson, who did not live the life, beat an in shape 175/180lbs Langford ?

Who has suggested that a rematch between Johnson and Langford a few years later would be another walk over for Johnson?

Johnson was getting over $30,000 for defending against Ketchel and Flynn in the States,why would he risk defending against a much more dangerous opponent in Langford in France for $10,000 less?

Johnson was beating the White Hopes the racists kept pushing his way,beating them easily, and getting very well paid for it,without having to put his aging frame through a tortuous training regimen,to attain the sort of conditioning he would have needed to be in to beat his three fellow black adversaries.

Why would he risk travelling to another country where his challengers were extremely popular, pay his travelling and training expenses out of his purse , train like he never trained for any of his defences except for Jeffries,just to take a ,reduced by a third, purse?

You mentioned logic ,well tell me where the logic is in that?

The only promoters who were eventually prepared to give Johnson his asking price of $30,000 to defend against one of the black trio,[Jeannette,] in the States were the McMahon's ,and the NYAC , in the city where Jeannette was most popular vetoed the fight and threatened any promoter who dared to put it on with the withdrawal of his NY license.
The three major US promoters of the era were.
Rickard
Curley
Coffroth

They are on public record as saying, "two blacks fighting for the Heavyweight title in the US wouldn't draw flies"

Johnson turned down offers of $10,000,$15,000,and $20,000 to defend against Jeannette in Paris,but when the offer was increased to $30,000 to fight him in the US he accepted. Where is the contradiction in his actions there?

Let me put a case here if I may.
Usyk is offered $1000,000 to defend against Parker or $ 3000,000 to defend against Whyte, which would he take?

If you were Usyk which would you take?


Every couple of weeks somebody states Johnson avoided his most dangerous challengers, they make this statement without ever taking the trouble to do any actual research into it .

One poster in particular has made a career out of a hating crusade against Johnson.

The astonishing fact is this same poster gives his idol JimJeffries a complete pass for avoiding his own black challengers.Consistent?

Sullivan
Corbett
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Hart
Heavyweight Vanilla Champions .

All drew the colour line as champion,but that's okay, let's just beat up on Jack Johnson because he wanted top dollar to defend against his black challengers,who by the way were certainly also among his most dangerous ones.

Just as Jackson was to Sullivan and Corbett,before Jeffries came along.
and Johnson,Martin, and McVey were to Jeffries.

Jeffries turned down a good guaranteed purses to fight McVey,and Martin, and took considerably less in defences against no hopers like Finnegan and Munroe.
Disgusted with his purse for Munroe, he retired whilst is his prime.


How many on this thread have addressed the original subject, who beats a prime Johnson?
And how many have eagerly used it as an excuse to just dump on Johnson?

- - Excellent blah-blah-blah, but bottomline the Brit National Sporting Club sponsored JJohnson's foray to Australia with the provision that he return to fight Sam Langford.

JJohnson bailed big time and that's always gonna be the bottomline for die hards, but for sissies, JJohnson floats their boats no doubt, oh, and Jeffries fought common JJohnson opponents with considerably better results.

Stick to French Snails and you'll have better results...yeah!!!

[Bronson66]

- - Excellent blah-blah-blah, but bottomline the Brit National Sporting Club sponsored JJohnson's foray to Australia with the provision that he return to fight Sam Langford.

JJohnson bailed big time and that's always gonna be the bottomline for die hards, but for sissies, JJohnson floats their boats no doubt, oh, and Jeffries fought common JJohnson opponents with considerably better results.

Stick to French Snails and you'll have better results...yeah!!!

No they didn't give him a penny this is an old Wive's tale that casuals like you like to repeat.

The NSC not the British NC,got Johnson to sign to fight Langford in early1908 for a small purse,whether he beat Burns or not.The fight was to take place in February 1909.Johnson won the title on Boxing Day1908.

I'm not going too fast for you am I?

Once he had won the title Johnson declared he wanted the same amount to defend it as Burns had received to defend against him.


The NSC didnt offer a quarter of that.So Johnson said **** You! Simple As!

[Bronson66]

Making the Jack Johson's top five wins requires more than being a casual fan as he was born at the right time, meaning his most famous wins are either very young , green/ and-inexperienced at heavyweight , a light weight ( Below 170 ), or way past their primes if one examines the conditions when they fought! Once you understand and admit the above, you can properly rate his wins.


It is perhaps the weakest list of all famous heavyweight champions.

Nevertheless, here are his best five wins in my opinion:


#1. Tommy Burns Record when he fought Johnson 44-3-8 . Age 27. 5'7 168 pounds, Reports say he was ill but he was champion, in his prime. IMO this is Johsnon's best filmed fight.


#2 Denver Ed Martin. Record when he fought Johnson. 15-1-1. The string beaned Martin, who was only 21 years old, but held wins over Childs, Armstrong Griffin, and Craig. He was tested
" Martin was ahead on points after 10 rounds. Johnson had Martin down 4 times in the 11th round, but couldn't finish him. According to the San Francisco Call, the fight was even from the 14th round to the finish." Martin had a glass jaw and weak body, but there is no doubt he could move and jab. For the colored heavyweight title.


#3 Joe Jeanette. Record when he fought Johnson. 10-10-1 age 27. Jeannette is the owner of a win and a draw over Johnson ( better than Langford who was 20 and Mcvey who was 19 ) was rapidly improving. His last fight with Johnson was a draw. But Johsnon did defeat him a few times too. As such he makes the list as a top 5 opponent.


#4 Frank Moran.Record when he fought Johnson. 26-9-4. Age 27. Moran was in his prime and a heavyweight over 200 pounds , but lost to MCcarty and Smith ( the best two " white hopes " which did not fight Johsnon for his title ) The filmed fight is fairly close vs a past his prime, but still functional Johnson lands him here.





#5 George Gardner.Record when he fought Johnson. 32-3-3. Age 25. Only 155 vs JJ pounds, he managed to beat Jack Root and Joe Walcott. and Craig before


Does anyone think Larry Homles best five wins include Ali? I did not list Jeffries because he has not fought in six year, was old, and has to lose a lot of weight. No one wins under these circumstances vs a prime opponent who is champion.

Langford was only 20 and had few opponents above 160 lbs. He was listed at 156 for Johnson.

Denver Ed Martin was 15-1-1 that's17 fights.Johnson had had 19, 2 more. Martin was 23lbs heavier than Johnson.

Their second fight Martin had 21 fights ,Johnson29.

Langford had 56 fights to his name when he fought 46 fight Johnson, Sam had beaten Jeannette over 15 rds, 20 days earlier.

Moran v Johnson was not a close fight at all.
"When the fight took place, before a fashionable audience at the V�lodrome d'Hiver, McKetrick saw he had been terribly mistaken about Moran's chances. It was true that Johnson was not in first-rate condition, but his superlative defense held up, and he was able to evade the dreaded Mary Ann and give Moran a severe beating without the full use of his left arm." From "Jack And The Game" by Finis Farr, Sports Illustrated, June 22, 1959:

• The St. Petersburg Daily Times reported the following on June 28, 1914:

"The battle was hard fought, but Johnson won easily. Moran was game and stubborn and did most of the leading. Johnson's superior skill was effective and his upper-cutting wore Moran down and won the contest. . . . There were no knockdowns, or anything resembling a finishing blow in the fight. At the close Moran's face was bleeding from a cut under the nose and left eye. Johnson showed no marks."

Johnson badly injured his right hand in this fight and attributed it to him wearing 4 ounce gloves instead of 5 ounce ones.Johnson signed to fight Langford in Paris for $30,000 and 50% of the motion picture rights. shortly after this fight, the fight to take place in mid October Two things killed this fight,the would be promoters couldn't come up with the money and the day after the Moran fight Arch Duke Ferdinand was assassinated prompting the onset of WW1


In exile Johnson offered to fight McCarty in Canada for , now promoter Burns, Burns didn't want to know, as he wanted his own protege , Pelkey to fight McCarty.