Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[Bronson66]

There is counter evidence that Jeffries was a walking dead man.

you also donât even need evidence - he came out of retirement

that being said - it doesnât mean Johnson still doesnât beat him - it just means Jeffries was sick and old - totally not capable of beating Johnson. Taking a beating would be expected - Jeffries was a sturdy fighter and Johnson not a particularly hard puncher

How was Jeffries sick? He was 35 ,3 years older than Johnson,hardly old

Didn't Champion Fitzsimmons age 36 come out of 2 years inactivity to defend against Jeffries.and wasn't he conceding39lbs to him?
Didn't 39 years old Fitzsimmons come out of 2 years retirement to challenge Jeffries ,and wasnt he conceding 47lbs to him?

Didn't Corbett , 33 years old come out of 3 years retirement to challengeJeffries,and wasnt he conceding 27lbs to him?

Didn't Corbett, now 36 years old,come of of retirement to challengeJeffries again,and wasn't he conceding 30lbs to him?

Wasn't Joe Goddard 40 years old when Jeffries fought him?

Wasn't Peter Jackson 36 years old, tubercular, alcoholic, and retired for 6 years when he fought Jeffries?

Point being ,if you totally dismiss Johnson's win over 35 years old Jeffries ,when he had over a year to round himself into condition and was down to weight 6 months before their fight.

How much gravitas do you put on these wins of Jeffries?

Seems to me you can't have it both ways,ie dismiss the first and laud the second.

N.B. Fitzsimmons ringside for the Reno fight,and rooting for Jeffries said after the fight."Johnson could have ended it any time he wanted."

[Bronson66]

Burns was the champ and agreed to the fight. He took his woopin like a man. There are no excuses allowed.

Langford, the giant slayer, was convinced after his fight with Johnson that Johnson was the best to ever get in a ring. There aren’t many if any at that time that I’m choosing to beat Langford, and no one I’m picking to give Langford such a beating.

Who else was beating Jeannette at the time of his fights with Johnson? After their initial fights, Jeannette went on a major streak where he went something like 4 years only losing to top competition: Johnson, Langford, or McVea. Johnson beat him when he was coming off a win over the great Langford. After the last time Johnson beat him, he went nearly 3 years without losing to any except those monsters until Ferguson finally got a decision over him. Clearly Johnson’s victories over him were excellent wins.

McVea at the time they fought, your idol Jeffries wanted no part of I guess he thought McVea had enough experience. The gap between his number of fights and Johnson’s was not much. From the start of his career until 1916, the only fighter that could take a win from him was Denver Ed and Harry Wills besides the monsters Johnson, Langford, and Jeannette. There weren’t many who could beat Jeannette, Langford, or McVea at this time.

Langford commented that Jeffries was just as fast as ever and in great shape for Johnson because how else could he have taken such a beating That’s the great Langford’s words, not mine. Sure he knows more than you ever will and that’s good enough for me.

Also, your idol got his ass beat so thoroughly that he admit he could have never beaten Johnson in his prime.

Looks to me like these performances were good enough for others to pay big respect to Johnson, and also good enough for your idol to duck him until he was goaded to finally take the fight and he got destroyed. Johnson beat respect into him.

you’re just sour that your boy got annihilated.


Has nothing to do with not reading carefully. I told you that quotation wasn’t in the book and YOU claimed I was making it up and to prove it wasn’t. I proved it.

Now you are still ducking because you don’t want to admit you have no primary source for the quotation Here’s a clue. Next time you want to shoot off a quotation, you better come correct or someone like me is going to slap you around for pulling bs from your ass. I know you are embarrassed that you can’t use that quotation anymore because if I see it, I’ll call you out and you’ll have to tuck tail and admit it’s a fake and you can’t prove it. Too bad for you.

Burns was 27, in his prime, and hadn't been beaten for 3 years.

He trained in public and stated he was in the condition of his life. Burns agreed to fighting in the clinches thinking it was his strong suit,he later recounted how badly he had underestimated Johnson's strength.

Burns and the promoter/referee McIntosh were close friends, if Burns was not in top shape he would have postponed the fight.

Z says Burns looks like he had influenza , what outward symptoms do you show if you have flu?lol

Years ago he said Burns had jaundice and quoted Kevin R Smith who wrote The Sundowners series as saying this, Smith came on ESB and told him to not use his name to hype his agenda.

Burns never mentioned any personal illness regarding the fight,not after the fight, nor anytime later in his life.

Z has claimed Johnson was injured in the body from Burns punches and went to hospital.
He didn't ,he went for a swim after the fight,its documented.

What we have here is a phobic hater deliberately and repeatedly lying about facts,over and over again, year after year, despite being banned for it 3 times on 2 forums.
There's no cure for such irrational and obsessional behaviour, it's in his DNA.

Gradually everyone becomes aware of his condition and any credibility he might once have had disappears and,once it's gone it does not come back!

[Dr Z]

[QUOTE=Bronson66;n32507930]
How was Jeffries sick? /QUOTE]



Fitz who was present at the fight said Jeffreis wasn't a quarter of the man he fought. He was depressed ( that how he may be viewed as sick ) going into the fight, had not fought is 6 years, old, and fat. No one under these terms is going to win a high level fighter. If you disgree I give you all of boxing history. Show me one man who over came this and won.


But this thread is about Jack Johnson and his best five wins.


Who are they and do you think they rate with any famous heavyweight? Look at the ages, experience level's, and weight of his opponents. You will find he either beat very young or old men, very green heavyweights, and sub 170 pound men.


I say his best five wins don't rate vs. other tenured heavyweight champions ( not one poster will debate this )and his losses to Choynski, Griffin, Hart and numerous draws / news draws he had were better fighters than the very green and young or light men Jack J's met for his best five victories.


After all Choysnki, Griffin and Hart were seasoned guys, whereas Langford was young ( 20 ), and weighed in under 160 pounds and was new to heavyweight fights.

Mcvey was even younger and very raw / inexperienced.


Jeanette was 0-3 when he first fought Johnson! A new to the game yet he defeated Jack once and drew with another time. So listing him as one of Jack's top 5 wins is fine. Jeanette says he was in the 160's when he meet Jack J.


Burns was sick as he weighed in at 168, today the super middleweight limit, and short 5'7 " ,but I think his record was good so he belongs in Jacks best 5 wins.

At least that is what Travesty thinks about his best five wins.

[travestyny]

There is counter evidence that Jeffries was a walking dead man.

you also donât even need evidence - he came out of retirement

that being said - it doesnât mean Johnson still doesnât beat him - it just means Jeffries was sick and old - totally not capable of beating Johnson. Taking a beating would be expected - Jeffries was a sturdy fighter and Johnson not a particularly hard puncher

I have no problem with this assessment (though I agree with Bronson that I wouldn’t describe him as “sick and old“. But I’ll take Jeffries word that he couldn’t beat Johnson in his prime. He’s likely the best person to make that assessment.

[travestyny]

How was Jeffries sick?



Fitz who was present at the fight said Jeffreis wasn't a quarter of the man he fought. He was depressed ( that how he may be viewed as sick ) going into the fight, had not fought is 6 years, old, and fat. No one under these terms is going to win a high level fighter. If you disgree I give you all of boxing history. Show me one man who over came this and won.


But this thread is about Jack Johnson and his best five wins.


Who are they and do you think they rate with any famous heavyweight? Look at the ages, experience level's, and weight of his opponents. You will find he either beat very young or old men, very green heavyweights, and sub 170 pound men.


I say his best five wins don't rate vs. other tenured heavyweight champions ( not one poster will debate this )and his losses to Choynski, Griffin, Hart and numerous draws / news draws he had were better fighters than the very green and young or light men Jack J's met for his best five victories.


After all Choysnki, Griffin and Hart were seasoned guys, whereas Langford was young ( 20 ), and weighed in under 160 pounds and was new to heavyweight fights.

Mcvey was even younger and very raw / inexperienced.


Jeanette was 0-3 when he first fought Johnson! A new to the game yet he defeated Jack once and drew with another time. So listing him as one of Jack's top 5 wins is fine. Jeanette says he was in the 160's when he meet Jack J.


Burns was sick as he weighed in at 168, today the super middleweight limit, and short 5'7 " ,but I think his record was good so he belongs in Jacks best 5 wins.

At least that is what Travesty thinks about his best five wins.

Burns was the champion so he was an easy choice for me. What is you proof that he was sick?

Who are you choosing to defeat McVea, Langford, and Jeannette around this time besides each other? Jeffries who wouldn’t fight them?

I’ll take Johnson’s top 5 over Dempsey’s top 5 for sure. Who do you think were Johnson’s top 5 and who were Dempsey’s top 5?

And no that doesn’t mean Dempsey should necessarily be downgraded. I’m only bringing it up because you asked. Wills has the best resume of them all imo.

[Dr Z]

Bronson66


Burns was 27, in his prime, and hadn't been beaten for 3 years.


Burns and the promoter/referee McIntosh were close friends, if Burns was not in top shape he would have postponed the fight.

Z says Burns looks like he had influenza , what outward symptoms do you show if you have flu?lol

Years ago he said Burns had jaundice and quoted Kevin R Smith who wrote The Sundowners series as saying this, Smith came on ESB and told him to not use his name to hype his agenda.

Burns never mentioned any personal illness regarding the fight,not after the fight, nor anytime later in his life.

Z has claimed Johnson was injured in the body from Burns punches and went to hospital.
He didn't ,he went for a swim after the fight,its documented.

Tommy Burns: Canada's unknown world heavyweight champion

By Dan McCaffery

Check page 204, which says Burns looked unnaturally yellow, and those in the front row thought he looked sick, which might explain his 168 pound weight.

In addition, check page 211 where it mentions Johnson's ribs were broken, and he later told Joe Louis that he was urinating blood.

No charge.

AI Overview:

Burns was suffering from influenza and had lost a significant amount of weight in the week leading up to the bout. Despite his condition, the fight went ahead, with Johnson ultimately winning and becoming the first African American heavyweight champion according to historical boxing records.

[Bronson66]

Burns was the champion so he was an easy choice for me. What is you proof that he was sick?

Who are you choosing to defeat McVea, Langford, and Jeannette around this time besides each other? Jeffries who wouldn’t fight them?

I’ll take Johnson’s top 5 over Dempsey’s top 5 for sure. Who do you think were Johnson’s top 5 and who were Dempsey’s top 5?

Jeffries wasn't fat he had a ripped abdomen and at 227lbs was well with the weight he often fought at. You're dealing with the Premier Johnson hater here.

[Dr Z]

Burns was the champion so he was an easy choice for me. What is you proof that he was sick?

Who are you choosing to defeat McVea, Langford, and Jeannette around this time besides each other? Jeffries who wouldn’t fight them?

I’ll take Johnson’s top 5 over Dempsey’s top 5 for sure. Who do you think were Johnson’s top 5 and who were Dempsey’s top 5?

And no that doesn’t mean Dempsey should necessarily be downgraded. I’m only bringing it up because you asked. Wills has the best resume of them all imo.

The proof of Burns being sick is in the post above. I will think about JJ best 5 wins later. I owe you that.

[travestyny]

The proof of Burns being sick is in the post above. I will think about JJ best 5 wins later. I owe you that.

Eh. I’ll try to look into it when I’m home. Currently on my flight back from Paris.
Some of these guys probably appeared sick because they knew they were going to be in for quite a night against Johnson. I’m pretty sure there was talk of Jeffries going into a depression and looking pale because he knew he was about to take a beating.

[Bronson66]

The proof of Burns being sick is in the post above. I will think about JJ best 5 wins later. I owe you that.

" I have never been better,I am now fitter than I have ever been to defend the title"Tommy Burns

At 1681/2lbs Burns was just 1 1/ 2lbs lighter than he had been for his title defence against Jim Flynn, as I have already said , he had shed all surplus fat from his torso. The weights were from their public weigh in, the day before the fight.