Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[Bronson66]

I bet Ketchel was lighter. they just told everyone he was heavier.

One thing I have come across more often due to chat gpt's analysis of uploaded books...

they pulled a lot of scammy crap back in the day and still do

In the era of newly emerging film it was really easy to do so

I got no proof but look how Fake Dempseys KO of Carpentier is. Carpentier wasn't winning but to me it looks like he could have went the distance. Same goes for Carnera and Sharkey. that knockout was so obviously fake. the mans legs were strong. You don't leap up with that much vigor after being iced, let alone twice in a row.

It's entirely possible but I believe he did weigh in for the Thomas fight for which his weight is given as170lbs.
Ketchel was a muscular 5 '9",is it so hard to accept that , he not having to make the middleweight limit ,would come in heavier?

image.pngIf I told you the man in the photo was 170lbs,would you find it difficult to believe me?

My point was Z makes a huge song and dance about the weight disparity in this fight,but is totally silent when Jeffries smaller opponents are mentioned.

I have Carpentier's autobiography,I believe he was done in that fight.

I also think Sharkey took a dive against Carnera,that's the most theatrical ko I have ever seen.

[Bronson66]

.....

Whoever you are , will you tell Ghost Of Dempsey you are NOT me!

[Dr Z]

Embarrass? You mean like I embarrassed you by proving that quotation is not in Johnson’s autobiography

YOU are seeking a way out. This is YOUR last chance.

Post a link to the article or post a picture of it and tell us what the primary source of the quotation is. Simple.

Then you can have your debate about Johnson’s 5 best wins. No problem like I told you. Not even sure how you debate a matter of opinion like this you dumbass. You gonna argue his 5 best wins are different than the ones I choose…? Good for you to have an opinion, moron. Nothing about that scares anyone you idiot, but you sure do seem afraid to post the proof of the primary source of that quotation, huh?

Now post the link or picture of the magazine and let’s see what the primary source is. You asked me to step up, I did. I asked you to step up and guess what…. You ducked and now you are squirming

The artcie is form aDec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hartt" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an au****ious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart. "


Reading more closely, the article is from Boxing Illustrated June 1989 reprinted : A case for and against Marvin Hart, NOT In not the Ring and out, and auto bio of Jack Johnson wtten by Damon Runyon. Read it slowly. Now I don't have that particular magazine present do you? I will however make a real bet of secured money provided you doubt this in the article and I say we are on. Are you squirming yet? Maybe I called a friend to confrim I am correct... it does not matter if I own it.

Got it now?


Okay, assuming you do go ahead and list Jack Johnson's best five wins taking into account the ages,weights, working conditions, experience levels, and wights of his opponents! Since you are an " expert " on Jack Johnson this should not be hard for you.

[Bronson66]

The artcie is form aDec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hartt" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an au****ious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart. "


Reading more closely, the article is from Boxing Illustrated June 1989 reprinted : A case for and against Marvin Hart, NOT In not the Ring and out, and auto bio of Jack Johnson wtten by Damon Runyon. Read it slowly. Now I don't have that particular magazine present do you? I will however make a real bet of secured money provided you doubt this in the article and I say we are on. Are you squirming yet? Maybe I called a friend to confrim I am correct... it does not matter if I own it.

Got it now?


Okay, assuming you do go ahead and list Jack Johnson's best five wins taking into account the ages,weights, working conditions, experience levels, and wights of his opponents! Since you are an " expert " on Jack Johnson this should not be hard for you.

“The Sporting Man About Town,” Buffalo Enquirer, March 30, 1905

[…]

“The sporting world is still talking about the remarkable decision given Marvin Hart on Tuesday night over Jack Johnson by Alexander Greggains, the referee, and the consensus opinion was that the contest was awarded to Hart so that Jeffries might be supplied with a possible ring rival and a sure victim. Jeffries has positively refused to meet Johnson. If the latter won, however, he might have nagged Jeffries so that the public’s demand would be so great that Jeffries would be compelled to let down the color bars and after all fight the negro. In defeat Johnson has no moral right or sporting right to demand a battle with the world’s greatest heavyweight champion. It is almost unanimous that even if Hart secures the coveted battle and added dollars in a fight with Jeffries that it means sure defeat for him. He did not show anything in his bout with Johnson but gameness to entitle him to a battle with Jeffries, and, according to all accounts, he fought like a novice, with wide open gloves, and rushed about the ring like a man on stilts. He could hardly see the majority of the rounds, but if Johnson can put him to the bad like he did the other night what would Jeffries do with him in a battle for the championship?”

Article giving Johnson's manager's perspective.

“Siler’s Talk of the Ring,” Chicago Tribune, April 16, 1905

[…]

"Zeke Abrams, who has had the colored heavyweight champion, Jack Johnson, under his managerial wing for some time, writes me from San Francisco that his fighter was handed a ‘package’ in his recent fight with Marvin Hart. Zeke writes: ‘I read your article anent the Hart-Johnson battle, and will say that Jack Johnson was robbed of the decision by Referee Greggains. Johnson put up as grand a fight as you ever saw in your experience as a referee. In every round he hit Hart whenever and wherever he pleased, and at the finish Hart’s face and head were badly battered. You can tell what I was up against when Hart refused to fight unless Greggains refereed. He refused to have Jack Welch; in fact, would not stand for any one except Greggains. Johnson never won so easy in all his life. In fact, he did not receive a punch hard enough to hurt a feather weight.

‘They tried to make a fit opponent for Jeffries, but the only man who has a chance with Jeffries is still living and his name is Jack Jonson. Jeffries knows well those who have a chance, and did not draw the color line until after Johnson defeated Jack Jeffries, Sam McVey, and ‘Denver Ed’ Martin. Not because the thought the color would rub off, but because he knew the big black has a chance to beat him. If Jeffries retires I will agree to match Jack to meet any man in the world for $2,5000 a side. Or if Jeffries changes his mind and remains in the ring, I will let Johnson meet him and cut the money to suit Jeff.’

Fight is thoroughly analyzed with multiple local sources and those who attended the fight.
The final analysis is that most fair-minded reporters thought Johnson won clearly; or at least should have received no worse than a draw. Some are more vociferous/adamant than others, and yes, there were some who supported the decision, or at least explained/justified it. But those who disagreed with it thought racial animus/bias as well as style bias was at work, as well as potential economic/racial incentives. For the record though, the crowd applauded the decision. There may have been more than meets the eye to this one too, as the book addresses. I don't want to give too much away."



...I don't expect the judges of 1910 in the context of a fight like Johnson/Jeffries to be fairer than the people who gave the earlier bout to Hart.

Adam Pollack

[travestyny]

The artcie is form aDec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hartt" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an au****ious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart. "


Reading more closely, the article is from Boxing Illustrated June 1989 reprinted : A case for and against Marvin Hart, NOT In not the Ring and out, and auto bio of Jack Johnson wtten by Damon Runyon. Read it slowly. Now I don't have that particular magazine present do you? I will however make a real bet of secured money provided you doubt this in the article and I say we are on. Are you squirming yet? Maybe I called a friend to confrim I am correct... it does not matter if I own it.

Got it now?


Okay, assuming you do go ahead and list Jack Johnson's best five wins taking into account the ages,weights, working conditions, experience levels, and wights of his opponents! Since you are an " expert " on Jack Johnson this should not be hard for you.

So state this clearly. You are saying you don’t have the article yourself and you have no idea where the quotation in the article comes from. Is that correct.
No link to it. No picture of it. No way to look into the primary source for the quotation. Right?

Admit it!


By the way, already told you my opinion.

Burns, Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and I’ll throw in Jeffries at the end just to ruffle your feathers.

[GhostofJuliusStreicher]

Whoever you are , will you tell Ghost Of Dempsey you are NOT me!

.....

[Dr Z]

So state this clearly. You are saying you don’t have the article yourself and you have no idea where the quotation in the article comes from. Is that correct.
No link to it. No picture of it. No way to look into the primary source for the quotation. Right?

Admit it!


By the way, already told you my opinion.

Burns, Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and I’ll throw in Jeffries at the end just to ruffle your feathers.

Burns was 5'7' 168 pounds. Big win at heavyweight, right? In addition to being outclassed, Jonhson hit and held and day long Burns was at a low weight and appears to be suffering from influenza. Those at the ring side said he looked yellow and sick, Did you read the book, Tommy Burns Canada's unknown world champion? It is in there.

Sam Langford was 20 year old, had little experience fighting heavyweights and was listed at 156 pounds! Sam says he was in the 140's. Another big win, right?

Jeanette was a losing or .500 fighter with limted experice and no amstuer carrer. He managed to draw and beat Johnson once. Green as grass for Jack J he was.

Mcvey was even younger than Langford! A teeneger 18, and 19 for two of the matches and just 20 for the third. He too had little experience,

Jeffries had not fought in 6 years and was old, Johnson defeated the shell of Jim Jeffries. That is it.

These are Jonhson's his best five wins according to you? LOL. I say Martin belongs in Jack Johnson's best five wins. Likely Frank Chillds too. Either way the list of wins is very weak. Weaker than any famous heavyweight champion. Now I already said I do not have the Boxing Illustrated article to post. You are beating a dead horse , but go on if you must. It is not my fault you did not read what I posted carefully.

[travestyny]

Burns was 5'7' 168 pounds. Big win at heavyweight, right? In addition to being outclassed, Jonhson hit and held and day long Burns was at a low weight and appears to be suffering from influenza. Those at the ring side said he looked yellow and sick, Did you read the book, Tommy Burns Canada's unknown world champion? It is in there.

Sam Langford was 20 year old, had little experience fighting heavyweights and was listed at 156 pounds! Sam says he was in the 140's. Another big win, right?

Jeanette was a losing or .500 fighter with limted experice and no amstuer carrer. He managed to draw and beat Johnson once. Green as grass for Jack J he was.

Mcvey was even younger than Langford! A teeneger 18, and 19 for two of the matches and just 20 for the third. He too had little experience,

Jeffries had not fought in 6 years and was old, Johnson defeated the shell of Jim Jeffries. That is it.

These are Jonhson's his best five wins according to you? LOL. I say Martin belongs in Jack Johnson's best five wins. Likely Frank Chillds too. Either way the list of wins is very weak. Weaker than any famous heavyweight champion. Now I already said I do not have the Boxing Illustrated article to post. You are beating a dead horse , but go on if you must. It is not my fault you did not read what I posted carefully.

Burns was the champ and agreed to the fight. He took his woopin like a man. There are no excuses allowed.

Langford, the giant slayer, was convinced after his fight with Johnson that Johnson was the best to ever get in a ring. There aren’t many if any at that time that I’m choosing to beat Langford, and no one I’m picking to give Langford such a beating.

Who else was beating Jeannette at the time of his fights with Johnson? After their initial fights, Jeannette went on a major streak where he went something like 4 years only losing to top competition: Johnson, Langford, or McVea. Johnson beat him when he was coming off a win over the great Langford. After the last time Johnson beat him, he went nearly 3 years without losing to any except those monsters until Ferguson finally got a decision over him. Clearly Johnson’s victories over him were excellent wins.

McVea at the time they fought, your idol Jeffries wanted no part of I guess he thought McVea had enough experience. The gap between his number of fights and Johnson’s was not much. From the start of his career until 1916, the only fighter that could take a win from him was Denver Ed and Harry Wills besides the monsters Johnson, Langford, and Jeannette. There weren’t many who could beat Jeannette, Langford, or McVea at this time.

Langford commented that Jeffries was just as fast as ever and in great shape for Johnson because how else could he have taken such a beating That’s the great Langford’s words, not mine. Sure he knows more than you ever will and that’s good enough for me.

Also, your idol got his ass beat so thoroughly that he admit he could have never beaten Johnson in his prime.

Looks to me like these performances were good enough for others to pay big respect to Johnson, and also good enough for your idol to duck him until he was goaded to finally take the fight and he got destroyed. Johnson beat respect into him.

you’re just sour that your boy got annihilated.


Has nothing to do with not reading carefully. I told you that quotation wasn’t in the book and YOU claimed I was making it up and to prove it wasn’t. I proved it.

Now you are still ducking because you don’t want to admit you have no primary source for the quotation Here’s a clue. Next time you want to shoot off a quotation, you better come correct or someone like me is going to slap you around for pulling bs from your ass. I know you are embarrassed that you can’t use that quotation anymore because if I see it, I’ll call you out and you’ll have to tuck tail and admit it’s a fake and you can’t prove it. Too bad for you.

[them_apples]

It's entirely possible but I believe he did weigh in for the Thomas fight for which his weight is given as170lbs.
Ketchel was a muscular 5 '9",is it so hard to accept that , he not having to make the middleweight limit ,would come in heavier?

image.pngIf I told you the man in the photo was 170lbs,would you find it difficult to believe me?

My point was Z makes a huge song and dance about the weight disparity in this fight,but is totally silent when Jeffries smaller opponents are mentioned.

I have Carpentier's autobiography,I believe he was done in that fight.

I also think Sharkey took a dive against Carnera,that's the most theatrical ko I have ever seen.

It is entirely within reason that he could weight 170 being a former middleweight probably with just a few big meals. It’s just also within reason they lied as well. Well never know (maybe)

[them_apples]

Burns was the champ and agreed to the fight. He took his woopin like a man. There are no excuses allowed.

Langford, the giant slayer, was convinced after his fight with Johnson that Johnson was the best to ever get in a ring. There aren’t many if any at that time that I’m choosing to beat Langford, and no one I’m picking to give Langford such a beating.

Who else was beating Jeannette at the time of his fights with Johnson? After their initial fights, Jeannette went on a major streak where he went something like 4 years only losing to top competition: Johnson, Langford, or McVea. Johnson beat him when he was coming off a win over the great Langford. After the last time Johnson beat him, he went nearly 3 years without losing to any except those monsters until Ferguson finally got a decision over him. Clearly Johnson’s victories over him were excellent wins.

McVea at the time they fought, your idol Jeffries wanted no part of I guess he thought McVea had enough experience. The gap between his number of fights and Johnson’s was not much. From the start of his career until 1916, the only fighter that could take a win from him was Denver Ed and Harry Wills besides the monsters Johnson, Langford, and Jeannette. There weren’t many who could beat Jeannette, Langford, or McVea at this time.

Langford commented that Jeffries was just as fast as ever and in great shape for Johnson because how else could he have taken such a beating That’s the great Langford’s words, not mine. Sure he knows more than you ever will and that’s good enough for me.

Also, your idol got his ass beat so thoroughly that he admit he could have never beaten Johnson in his prime.

Looks to me like these performances were good enough for others to pay big respect to Johnson, and also good enough for your idol to duck him until he was goaded to finally take the fight and he got destroyed. Johnson beat respect into him.

you’re just sour that your boy got annihilated.


Has nothing to do with not reading carefully. I told you that quotation wasn’t in the book and YOU claimed I was making it up and to prove it wasn’t. I proved it.

Now you are still ducking because you don’t want to admit you have no primary source for the quotation Here’s a clue. Next time you want to shoot off a quotation, you better come correct or someone like me is going to slap you around for pulling bs from your ass. I know you are embarrassed that you can’t use that quotation anymore because if I see it, I’ll call you out and you’ll have to tuck tail and admit it’s a fake and you can’t prove it. Too bad for you.

There is counter evidence that Jeffries was a walking dead man.

you also don’t even need evidence - he came out of retirement

that being said - it doesn’t mean Johnson still doesn’t beat him - it just means Jeffries was sick and old - totally not capable of beating Johnson. Taking a beating would be expected - Jeffries was a sturdy fighter and Johnson not a particularly hard puncher