By Your Criteria Is Holyfield An ATG Heavyweight?

[Nash out]

Usually when a men is debuting while another is champion we consider the era the champion's not the debutant's. Usually when a champion linger long enough for a full career to catch up to him we consider that aged out and astrix that win.

I'd like to know exactly when is meant to be the Lennox Lewis era if it isn't simply cleaning up after Mike and Evander. That is to say, yes I recognize your recognition of who came and built what Lennox enjoyed but you leave room for allusion there is more to Lennox's time in office than just being the man standing when Mike and Evander fell.

If that's the case let's hear it. I was a little kid back then, listening to Limp Bizkit and ****.

Because I am not saying it isn't enough to make him great on his own. I am saying it doesn't exist at all. The eras fans claim are Lennox's are Mike's and then Evander's. Lennox has Vitali and that's pretty much it.


Y'all can sit there and pretend beating the exact same men Mike beat in their primes is somehow more than fighting Mike Tyson leftovers if you like but like I've already shown outside of the leftover he has no resume. You'll be pretending like Morrison is worth mention in a debate featuring Tyson and Holyfield ... ... ...



Plenty of if not everyone but me regularly rates Louis over Marciano so I don't want to hear **** about but he beat dem doe. Mike Tyson is champion in the 80s ffs. 2000 it late, duh.




Lastly, it's not like I'm just making **** up. Youse LOVE ring. The one ****in time it happens to corroborate what I am saying now Ring ratings ain't ****? Well, if they are, when is this dominant LL era?

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Razor Ruddock
4. James (Buster) Douglas
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Carl Williams
7. Francesco Damiani
8. Rid**** Bowe
9. Ray Mercer
10. George Foreman

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Razor Ruddock
5. Ray Mercer
6. George Foreman
7. Tim Witherspoon
8. Tony Tucker
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Michael Moorer

Title Vacant

1. Rid**** Bowe
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Michael Moorer
5. Tony Tucker
6. George Foreman
7. Razor Ruddock
8. Ray Mercer
9. Tommy Morrison
10. Alex Garcia

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Rid**** Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Michael Moorer
5. Michael Bentt
6. Oliver McCall
7. Ray Mercer
8. Phil Jackson
9. Tommy Morrison
10. Mike Hunter

Title Vacant

1. George Foreman
2. Oliver McCall
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Michael Moorer
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Herbie Hide
7. Larry Holmes
8. Henry Akinwande
9. Jorge Luis Gonzalez
10. Lionel Butler

Title Vacant

1. Rid**** Bowe
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Bruce Seldon
7. Frank Bruno
8. George Foreman
9. Alexander Zolkin
10. Henry Akinwand

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Andrew Golota
6. Ray Mercer
7. Henry Akinwande
8. David Tua
9. Rid**** Bowe
10. Tim Witherspoon

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ray Mercer
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. George Foreman
7. Shannon Briggs
8. Ike Ibeabuchi
9. David Tua
10. David Izon

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Grant
4. Michael Moorer
5. Shannon Briggs
6. Chris Byrd
7. Ike Ibeabuchi
8. David Tua
9. Andrew Golota
10. Hasim Rahman

Title Vacant

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Evander Holyfield
3. Michael Grant
4. Ike Ibeabuchi
5. David Tua
6. Mike Tyson
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. Andrew Golota
9. Derrick Jefferson
10. Oleg Maskaev

âRetired!


It was Evander The Real Deal Holyfield's era. He made it happen. I don't what to hear **** about but Bowe doe, but King doe, like as if Evander did not have to deal with the same exact characters. He made it happen, Lennox Lewis did **** all nothing but wait.



Started his career late, avoided anything that would see him mix with the boys any time their best, and still struggled






Yeah, I'll get into how he avoided being a real champion for money soon enough but ATM I'm finna have some dinner! That said, I didn't allude so all I'll be doing is adding deets. If you want to go ahead and explain how selling his belts to fight a hypejob and adding more belts to each division helped boxing go ahead.


This ****ing guys gets credit for beating guys whose only good win is him. How TF is that a resume win?

Holyfield fought everyone. He really kept that era going as others avoided each other and binned belts and so on. Did you see his appearance on Fresh Prince back in the early 90s? Will was like, "Yeah, I can take him." Until he turned up at the Bank's Residence. Holyfield, was like Rocky Balboa who came before him, but a better version, always in a war no matter the opposition, just his style , like Balboa, whose win over Mr.T still amazes Nash, but Holyfield would have beaten Rocky Balboa had they fought, and he would beat any version of Tyson. Also, whilst Lewis should have won fight 1, I felt Holyfield won the rematch. Nash out - His Majesty

[Willie Pep 229]

I guess I may be the only person on this planet who thought Mike Tyson was right in biting off the top of Holyfield's ear.

Bad for boxing yes, but I was as frustrated as Tyson was with the damn headbutting.

At first I was a Holyfield fan, even predicting he would beat Tyson back before Douglas did. He had all the right traits for a champion. Fought everyone and like to brawl. Wasn't interested with what the judges thought, he was a fighter. My kind of guy.

But after the two Tyson fights I switched sides.

I don't know how I feel about juicing, it's probably not good for the game, but deliberately head butting an opponent should get your licence pulled for a year.

In the London Prize Ring Rules (Revised] 1853:

Rules 14 through 18 deal with foul blows. The Rules identify all the classic cheap shots, kicking, biting, gouging, low blows, Etc. and calls them all foul.

But only headbutting (Rule 14) calls for immediate disqualification, the other fouls are left open to the referee's discretion.

Might sound silly, but biting doesn't usually end a fight but headbutting can ruin a career.

That may be why Lane only warned (and deducted a point from) Tyson for the first bite. He technically DQed Tyson for "not following the referee's instructions" with the second bite. (Lane's words.)

I'll take juicing over headbutting. To me deliberately headbutting is no less dangerous than removing padding from a glove.

[QueensburyRules]

I guess I may be the only person on this planet who thought Mike Tyson was right in biting off the top of Holyfield's ear.

Bad for boxing yes, but I was as frustrated as Tyson was with the damn headbutting.

At first I was a Holyfield fan, even predicting he would beat Tyson back before Douglas did. He had all the right traits for a champion. Fought everyone and like to brawl. Wasn't interested with what the judges thought, he was a fighter. My kind of guy.

But after the two Tyson fights I switched sides.

I don't know how I feel about juicing, it's probably not good for the game, but deliberately head butting an opponent should get your licence pulled for a year.

In the London Prize Ring Rules (Revised] 1853:

Rules 14 through 18 deal with foul blows. The Rules identify all the classic cheap shots, kicking, biting, gouging, low blows, Etc. and calls them all foul.

But only headbutting (Rule 14) calls for immediate disqualification, the other fouls are left open to the referee's discretion.

Might sound silly, but biting doesn't usually end a fight but headbutting can ruin a career.

That may be why Lane only warned (and deducted a point from) Tyson for the first bite. He technically DQed Tyson for "not following the referee's instructions" with the second bite. (Lane's words.)

I'll take juicing over headbutting. To me deliberately headbutting is no less dangerous than removing padding from a glove.

- - It was a headbutt in the first fight that drew Tyson blood for the first time in his career as far as I know. Tyson reacted poorly because Field had been circling the drain such that we the people were concerned for his health after Tyson beat him up.

Oddly Field reacted the same way when Tubby Lar sliced him open with an elbow, but Lar was shot and couldn't take advantage.

[billeau2]

It's a clever way to avoid saying, but he had issues to deal with that Holyfield didn't, without saying it, I'll give youse that.



Lewis was rightly handled by American media. It was him who was the issue, he loves money.


Lewis had to be paid handsomely or given a no hoper. But it's okay, he can get KTFO by them and make them a resume win by beating them back later.


Lewis finally steps up, get his undisputed, and then immediately sells his title. But that's okay. Somehow it's America's fault Lennox fought Grant. Nothing to do with Ruiz being a stall master and Grant being an easy showy fight that pays well. Juxtapositioning from American media and **** talking is what guided Lennox's career


Lennox just jumped in the ring is Vitlles too right? Didn't use a Mike Tyson rematch as bargaining? In fact didn't it take Vitali years and some level of WBC ****ery to bring him in as a "late replacement"? Oh but it was America doe, King doe, anybody but Lennox ****ing Lewis doe. I'm sure Vitali was just so, so hard to deal with Lennox simply never did.


Lennox Lewis sure does seem to always have an excuse for **** Lennox Lewis does to himself, but yo it were Larry Merchant's ****sucker that caused it doe


Then when he retired he made sure to give one last gift for fighters like himself who place glory and status above maximum returns by directing the WBA toward the Regular title.


Let me just point out, not only did I not hide from his resume, by my estimation I gave it very little challenge and yet still the goal post is changed from resume to promotion and Maloney taking a raping from King and Arum over at HBO. I didn't hide from that either but it'll not be me who takes the credit for the direction changes in this conversation.

So yeah, beat that trumpet all you like but Lewis didn't work with Shaw any better than he did King. He got out maneuvered by a superior handler and forced into something he didn't want to do. Then retired to avoid repeating the process. Then added the much loved Reg to our midst.



But yeah, earned this fandom, sure, but Evander can be questioned if he's even an ATG. Sure.

We disagree But the real disagreement is that last sentence... We are the History section... We question shiat. We question whether Ray Robinson the wanna be dancer could be called great against Homicidal Hank Armstrong... We question whether Dempsey put a small nuclear power plant in his right glove... Dempsey was smart right? Holyfield can be questioned... Lewis can be called on the carpet. Holyfield is not above reproach anymore than any other fighter.

[billeau2]

I guess I may be the only person on this planet who thought Mike Tyson was right in biting off the top of Holyfield's ear.

Bad for boxing yes, but I was as frustrated as Tyson was with the damn headbutting.

At first I was a Holyfield fan, even predicting he would beat Tyson back before Douglas did. He had all the right traits for a champion. Fought everyone and like to brawl. Wasn't interested with what the judges thought, he was a fighter. My kind of guy.

But after the two Tyson fights I switched sides.

I don't know how I feel about juicing, it's probably not good for the game, but deliberately head butting an opponent should get your licence pulled for a year.

In the London Prize Ring Rules (Revised] 1853:

Rules 14 through 18 deal with foul blows. The Rules identify all the classic cheap shots, kicking, biting, gouging, low blows, Etc. and calls them all foul.

But only headbutting (Rule 14) calls for immediate disqualification, the other fouls are left open to the referee's discretion.

Might sound silly, but biting doesn't usually end a fight but headbutting can ruin a career.

That may be why Lane only warned (and deducted a point from) Tyson for the first bite. He technically DQed Tyson for "not following the referee's instructions" with the second bite. (Lane's words.)

I'll take juicing over headbutting. To me deliberately headbutting is no less dangerous than removing padding from a glove.

Yeah this brings one to a grey area. Not an area that should be designated with an elephant within it, but a room that needs its own cleaning. Many of us feel like given the human life span, what happens to us when we age, letting fighters decide in an open field what they want to put in their bodies might make things easier. But that would take a lot of responsability human beings have not shown the capacity for quite yet...

As far as butting versus leading with the head, etc... It is a mess. We should discuss in more detail frankly. leading with the head is something many great counter punchers do/did... Nikolay Loche for example... When does it become hitting with the head? hard to guage.

[Marchegiano]

We disagree But the real disagreement is that last sentence... We are the History section... We question shiat. We question whether Ray Robinson the wanna be dancer could be called great against Homicidal Hank Armstrong... We question whether Dempsey put a small nuclear power plant in his right glove... Dempsey was smart right? Holyfield can be questioned... Lewis can be called on the carpet. Holyfield is not above reproach anymore than any other fighter.

**** me you got me between two principles. It turns out I am a hypocrite then!

It's find, I can tame multitudes.


When I was little, about 8 or 9, I really thought that was the quote. When I finally read "I contain multitudes" I was quietly shaken by my mistake and hoped none had noticed prior.


The message isn't Holyfield is beyond reproach, it is that Lennox Lewis in no way shape or form shines a bad light on Holyfield, if anything that's backwards.

I wouldn't be talking mad **** about the last undisputed if not for a poster claiming Lewis is somehow greater than the last undisputed to defend his position.

This idea it was Lennox's era or than Lennox Lewis can join the party an entire career's worth of fights and a decade late should be pushed back against more.

Maybe I let this die down for a while but I am legitimately hungry for a complete comparison of careers. I think Lewis pulled the wool ages ago and been riding off the good will ever since. Fans now call Evander lacking Goddamn right I'm talking ****.

Real Deal brother. Lewis a liar, liar, wolf crier.

[billeau2]

**** me you got me between two principles. It turns out I am a hypocrite then!

It's find, I can tame multitudes.


When I was little, about 8 or 9, I really thought that was the quote. When I finally read "I contain multitudes" I was quietly shaken by my mistake and hoped none had noticed prior.


The message isn't Holyfield is beyond reproach, it is that Lennox Lewis in no way shape or form shines a bad light on Holyfield, if anything that's backwards.

I wouldn't be talking mad **** about the last undisputed if not for a poster claiming Lewis is somehow greater than the last undisputed to defend his position.

This idea it was Lennox's era or than Lennox Lewis can join the party an entire career's worth of fights and a decade late should be pushed back against more.

Maybe I let this die down for a while but I am legitimately hungry for a complete comparison of careers. I think Lewis pulled the wool ages ago and been riding off the good will ever since. Fans now call Evander lacking Goddamn right I'm talking ****.

Real Deal brother. Lewis a liar, liar, wolf crier.

I don't look at epoches the same way you do brother... I do not give a shiat to whom any era is credited besides a few very watershed events. I find such comparisons distracting. Ultimately we have tape, experiences, resume... We can use those as we see fit. We can say things like forget Holly losing a lot when he got older, to guys like Toney. Lets give Holly credit for his past division wins... We can say things like Holly lost a lot of fights and was beat by some of the best men he rematched... these are all legit playing pieces on the proverbial board IMO.

We can say lewis got stretched twice... Never got to fight Bowe (I do not care who is at fault!) We can even say Lewis might have rematched that poor Ukranian with the Vag face...

Thats my POV not really about who gets bragging rights about an era.

[BKM-]

I guess I may be the only person on this planet who thought Mike Tyson was right in biting off the top of Holyfield's ear.

Bad for boxing yes, but I was as frustrated as Tyson was with the damn headbutting.

At first I was a Holyfield fan, even predicting he would beat Tyson back before Douglas did. He had all the right traits for a champion. Fought everyone and like to brawl. Wasn't interested with what the judges thought, he was a fighter. My kind of guy.

But after the two Tyson fights I switched sides.

I don't know how I feel about juicing, it's probably not good for the game, but deliberately head butting an opponent should get your licence pulled for a year.

In the London Prize Ring Rules (Revised] 1853:

Rules 14 through 18 deal with foul blows. The Rules identify all the classic cheap shots, kicking, biting, gouging, low blows, Etc. and calls them all foul.

But only headbutting (Rule 14) calls for immediate disqualification, the other fouls are left open to the referee's discretion.

Might sound silly, but biting doesn't usually end a fight but headbutting can ruin a career.

That may be why Lane only warned (and deducted a point from) Tyson for the first bite. He technically DQed Tyson for "not following the referee's instructions" with the second bite. (Lane's words.)

I'll take juicing over headbutting. To me deliberately headbutting is no less dangerous than removing padding from a glove.

Well you see, when you put it in perspective Tyson got beaten in his own dirty game and it was in fact he who was also a very dirty fighter his whole career(took pride in learning all the dirty tricks from past greats when he had access to all the boxing footage in Cus' house).

Tyson headbutted and elbowed berbick, tried to break Botha and Mcbride's arms, punched Ruddock, Smith, Norris long after the bell rung. He also loved low blows. It is a mystery how Tyson got away with it and isn't labeled a dirty fighter which he obviously was.

And none of those men except maybe Ruddock did anything dirty to Tyson, they simply frustrated the big bully who couldn't take it when they went down after the first shots they felt.

He can't take it when people stand up to him. You saw it in every area of his life, with his ***ual assaults of women, the beatings he gave his wife, managers, etc.

In his era you had several men who did not have that trait and that's Tyson's kryptonite. Evander, Tokyo Douglas, Lewis, Bowe, Tua, Big George Foreman. Tyson either ducked them or got knocked out by every single one of them.

Also Tyson was one of the most rampant PED users I've ever seen in sports so really I can't fault Evander for anything. Evan playing field.

[billeau2]

Well you see, when you put it in perspective Tyson got beaten in his own dirty game and it was in fact he who was also a very dirty fighter his whole career(took pride in learning all the dirty tricks from past greats when he had access to all the boxing footage in Cus' house).

Tyson headbutted and elbowed berbick, tried to break Botha and Mcbride's arms, punched Ruddock, Smith, Norris long after the bell rung. He also loved low blows. It is a mystery how Tyson got away with it and isn't labeled a dirty fighter which he obviously was.

And none of those men except maybe Ruddock did anything dirty to Tyson, they simply frustrated the big bully who couldn't take it when they went down after the first shots they felt.

He can't take it when people stand up to him. You saw it in every area of his life, with his ***ual assaults of women, the beatings he gave his wife, managers, etc.

In his era you had several men who did not have that trait and that's Tyson's kryptonite. Evander, Tokyo Douglas, Lewis, Bowe, Tua, Big George Foreman. Tyson either ducked them or got knocked out by every single one of them.

Also Tyson was one of the most rampant PED users I've ever seen in sports so really I can't fault Evander for anything. Evan playing field.

Ah the classic "two wrongs make a right" or translated to Chinese boxing: "Two Wongs make a fight." Boxing is complicated. Certain so called "dirty" moves are tolerated. Clinching, euphemistically called "tying a man up" fighting inside with traps, arm holds, etc. To an extent fighters are allowed to lead with the head as well. And when we try to imagine steroid use, seldom do people imagine that which they might not be aware of.

Fighting hard often has elements of all things considered dirty, done as a means to facilitate progress aggressively. These things are tolerated because boxing has a hidden and apparent aspect. The hidden aspect is that it is a fight. One thing to be aware of here is how bad it becomes when a combat sport is over regulated. Judo has become a joke... All the good stuff has been banished from the sport. Fencing as an art was destroyed in order for people to vie for points along a straight path. occasinally in MMA a fighter does a kick properly and breaks a knee... and the effects are devistating.

I do think we have to watch head butts. They are dangerous and there is no mistaking them for trying to position oneself using the head to lead. To equivocate what Tyson does with head butting I do not agree with. However, I also do not believe in calling Holly a serial head butter.

[DeeMoney]

**** me you got me between two principles. It turns out I am a hypocrite then!

It's find, I can tame multitudes.


When I was little, about 8 or 9, I really thought that was the quote. When I finally read "I contain multitudes" I was quietly shaken by my mistake and hoped none had noticed prior.


The message isn't Holyfield is beyond reproach, it is that Lennox Lewis in no way shape or form shines a bad light on Holyfield, if anything that's backwards.

I wouldn't be talking mad **** about the last undisputed if not for a poster claiming Lewis is somehow greater than the last undisputed to defend his position.

This idea it was Lennox's era or than Lennox Lewis can join the party an entire career's worth of fights and a decade late should be pushed back against more.

Maybe I let this die down for a while but I am legitimately hungry for a complete comparison of careers. I think Lewis pulled the wool ages ago and been riding off the good will ever since. Fans now call Evander lacking Goddamn right I'm talking ****.

Real Deal brother. Lewis a liar, liar, wolf crier.

Ahh man, I guess I better chime in as I was that 'other poster' who set off the fire here.

I actually agree and have Holyfield rated higher than Lewis P4P, Holyfield is possibly the greatest Cruiser ever and his work at Cruiser plus Heavy puts him over Lewis P4P. I also will admit, I never considered Holyfield and Lewis as not being part of the same era, but as you pointed out they were, kind of (despite only being 3 years apart in age). Prime Holyfield seemed to come to an end mid 90s and definitely by the time he met Lewis; Lewis' prime was mid 90s through the end of the decade. Just one of those things.

That being written, and I know you will disagree, but I feel the best version of Lewis was better than the best heavyweight version of Holyfield and would beat him more often than not. I know that he didn't fight as many great fighters, but in watching them I still think he's better (and I was a huge Holyfield fan at the time). Maybe Lewis pulled the wool over my eyes, but its how I see it. I also think Lewis had a good stretch where he was the best heavy in the world, from about 96-02.