By Your Criteria Is Holyfield An ATG Heavyweight?

[billeau2]

I don't think any HW aside from Ali has bigger wins than Holyfield. The only things holding him are his peak HW years were limited(I mean peak physically) and he lost a few of those due to health problems which cost him losses.

The second is that due to his brawling ways shortening that peak, he did not have just enough left in the tank to score a win over Lennox Lewis who is one of the greatest HW's and in his prime at that time. He was so close though.

Boy if he had won that fight you could argue he was the HW GOAT. Bowe, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Moorer, Holmes, Mercer, Douglas, Ruiz, 3x champ. Maybe still Ali but you can't get much better than that kind of record.

If you compare things like ages of opponents, losses, wins, etc IMO Holy does not come in as strong as Lewis, but is close... People never give Lewis the credit for taking out Briggs and Golata among other young lions who at the time were considered very dangerous.

@Margiano does make a great point in that before lewis fought Ruddock, he had lost to Tyson... Among other such details, this is not lost on me. But Lewis was considered a real underdog for that fight against Ruddock, which is instructive. Holly lost a lot of fights also... Just sayin.

[billeau2]

Good post! I may be wrong, but he way i remember it was the second Holy-Lewis fight was closer (on the cards) than the first. I may have it backwards though as it's been awhile since I've watched them.

I actually remember those two fights very well... The geritol is kicking in today! The first fight lewis won easily and was robbed. The second fight was close, and could have been called a draw. Holyfield made a very intelligent critique regarding both fights and I agree with him. he said that lewis should have ended it when he had a chance. lewis was too cautious and it could have cost him that second fight for sure.

[BKM-]

If you compare things like ages of opponents, losses, wins, etc IMO Holy does not come in as strong as Lewis, but is close... People never give Lewis the credit for taking out Briggs and Golata among other young lions who at the time were considered very dangerous.

@Margiano does make a great point in that before lewis fought Ruddock, he had lost to Tyson... Among other such details, this is not lost on me. But Lewis was considered a real underdog for that fight against Ruddock, which is instructive. Holly lost a lot of fights also... Just sayin.

Lewis and Ali have quality on top of quantity and Evander's resume is amazing but top-heavy, I would agree. But still, if he did what I described he would have beaten all the best of the second strongest HW era and 3, arguably 4 ATG HW's.

Most HW's even most of the greats are lucky to have 1 solid win over an ATG. But To have that many on a resume is on another level.

Anyway, it never happened and ol Evander didn't make quite make it. I'm off to nap to continue dreaming. Cheers.

[billeau2]

Lewis and Ali have quality on top of quantity and Evander's resume is amazing but top-heavy, I would agree. But still, if he did what I described he would have beaten all the best of the second strongest HW era and 3, arguably 4 ATG HW's.

Most HW's even most of the greats are lucky to have 1 solid win over an ATG. But To have that many on a resume is on another level.

Anyway, it never happened and ol Evander didn't make quite make it. I'm off to nap to continue dreaming. Cheers.

No question about it, as a heavyweight he has one of the stronger resumes. Definitely top 5 maybe top 3. Ali, Lewis, Frazier? Maybe Holy beats Frazier out? have to think about it but it would not suprise me.

[JAB5239]

I actually remember those two fights very well... The geritol is kicking in today! The first fight lewis won easily and was robbed. The second fight was close, and could have been called a draw. Holyfield made a very intelligent critique regarding both fights and I agree with him. he said that lewis should have ended it when he had a chance. lewis was too cautious and it could have cost him that second fight for sure.

Sweet Jesus, thank you!!! I was worried I was losing it.

[Marchegiano]

I don't know about all that "leaving" but padna lewis fought a bevy of young lions when they were able. I tink eras are dialectical, their substance is only that which synthesises them anew into a new era. Lewis' era was not bad, it was a very strong division. But if it makes you feel better? I can give credit to the development of that era vis a vis the work of Holly and Tyson.

But how did he leave it in bad condition? He cleaned the division out...

Usually when a men is debuting while another is champion we consider the era the champion's not the debutant's. Usually when a champion linger long enough for a full career to catch up to him we consider that aged out and astrix that win.

I'd like to know exactly when is meant to be the Lennox Lewis era if it isn't simply cleaning up after Mike and Evander. That is to say, yes I recognize your recognition of who came and built what Lennox enjoyed but you leave room for allusion there is more to Lennox's time in office than just being the man standing when Mike and Evander fell.

If that's the case let's hear it. I was a little kid back then, listening to Limp Bizkit and ****.

Because I am not saying it isn't enough to make him great on his own. I am saying it doesn't exist at all. The eras fans claim are Lennox's are Mike's and then Evander's. Lennox has Vitali and that's pretty much it.


Y'all can sit there and pretend beating the exact same men Mike beat in their primes is somehow more than fighting Mike Tyson leftovers if you like but like I've already shown outside of the leftover he has no resume. You'll be pretending like Morrison is worth mention in a debate featuring Tyson and Holyfield ... ... ...



Plenty of if not everyone but me regularly rates Louis over Marciano so I don't want to hear **** about but he beat dem doe. Mike Tyson is champion in the 80s ffs. 2000 it late, duh.




Lastly, it's not like I'm just making **** up. Youse LOVE ring. The one ****in time it happens to corroborate what I am saying now Ring ratings ain't ****? Well, if they are, when is this dominant LL era?

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Razor Ruddock
4. James (Buster) Douglas
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Carl Williams
7. Francesco Damiani
8. Rid**** Bowe
9. Ray Mercer
10. George Foreman

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Razor Ruddock
5. Ray Mercer
6. George Foreman
7. Tim Witherspoon
8. Tony Tucker
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Michael Moorer

Title Vacant

1. Rid**** Bowe
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Michael Moorer
5. Tony Tucker
6. George Foreman
7. Razor Ruddock
8. Ray Mercer
9. Tommy Morrison
10. Alex Garcia

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Rid**** Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Michael Moorer
5. Michael Bentt
6. Oliver McCall
7. Ray Mercer
8. Phil Jackson
9. Tommy Morrison
10. Mike Hunter

Title Vacant

1. George Foreman
2. Oliver McCall
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Michael Moorer
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Herbie Hide
7. Larry Holmes
8. Henry Akinwande
9. Jorge Luis Gonzalez
10. Lionel Butler

Title Vacant

1. Rid**** Bowe
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Bruce Seldon
7. Frank Bruno
8. George Foreman
9. Alexander Zolkin
10. Henry Akinwand

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Andrew Golota
6. Ray Mercer
7. Henry Akinwande
8. David Tua
9. Rid**** Bowe
10. Tim Witherspoon

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ray Mercer
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. George Foreman
7. Shannon Briggs
8. Ike Ibeabuchi
9. David Tua
10. David Izon

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Grant
4. Michael Moorer
5. Shannon Briggs
6. Chris Byrd
7. Ike Ibeabuchi
8. David Tua
9. Andrew Golota
10. Hasim Rahman

Title Vacant

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Evander Holyfield
3. Michael Grant
4. Ike Ibeabuchi
5. David Tua
6. Mike Tyson
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. Andrew Golota
9. Derrick Jefferson
10. Oleg Maskaev

​Retired!


It was Evander The Real Deal Holyfield's era. He made it happen. I don't what to hear **** about but Bowe doe, but King doe, like as if Evander did not have to deal with the same exact characters. He made it happen, Lennox Lewis did **** all nothing but wait.



Started his career late, avoided anything that would see him mix with the boys any time their best, and still struggled






Yeah, I'll get into how he avoided being a real champion for money soon enough but ATM I'm finna have some dinner! That said, I didn't allude so all I'll be doing is adding deets. If you want to go ahead and explain how selling his belts to fight a hypejob and adding more belts to each division helped boxing go ahead.


This ****ing guys gets credit for beating guys whose only good win is him. How TF is that a resume win?

[billeau2]

Usually when a men is debuting while another is champion we consider the era the champion's not the debutant's. Usually when a champion linger long enough for a full career to catch up to him we consider that aged out and astrix that win.

I'd like to know exactly when is meant to be the Lennox Lewis era if it isn't simply cleaning up after Mike and Evander. That is to say, yes I recognize your recognition of who came and built what Lennox enjoyed but you leave room for allusion there is more to Lennox's time in office than just being the man standing when Mike and Evander fell.

If that's the case let's hear it. I was a little kid back then, listening to Limp Bizkit and ****.

Because I am not saying it isn't enough to make him great on his own. I am saying it doesn't exist at all. The eras fans claim are Lennox's are Mike's and then Evander's. Lennox has Vitali and that's pretty much it.


Y'all can sit there and pretend beating the exact same men Mike beat in their primes is somehow more than fighting Mike Tyson leftovers if you like but like I've already shown outside of the leftover he has no resume. You'll be pretending like Morrison is worth mention in a debate featuring Tyson and Holyfield ... ... ...



Plenty of if not everyone but me regularly rates Louis over Marciano so I don't want to hear **** about but he beat dem doe. Mike Tyson is champion in the 80s ffs. 2000 it late, duh.




Lastly, it's not like I'm just making **** up. Youse LOVE ring. The one ****in time it happens to corroborate what I am saying now Ring ratings ain't ****? Well, if they are, when is this dominant LL era?

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Razor Ruddock
4. James (Buster) Douglas
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Carl Williams
7. Francesco Damiani
8. Rid**** Bowe
9. Ray Mercer
10. George Foreman

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Mike Tyson
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Razor Ruddock
5. Ray Mercer
6. George Foreman
7. Tim Witherspoon
8. Tony Tucker
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Michael Moorer

Title Vacant

1. Rid**** Bowe
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Michael Moorer
5. Tony Tucker
6. George Foreman
7. Razor Ruddock
8. Ray Mercer
9. Tommy Morrison
10. Alex Garcia

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Rid**** Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Michael Moorer
5. Michael Bentt
6. Oliver McCall
7. Ray Mercer
8. Phil Jackson
9. Tommy Morrison
10. Mike Hunter

Title Vacant

1. George Foreman
2. Oliver McCall
3. Rid**** Bowe
4. Michael Moorer
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Herbie Hide
7. Larry Holmes
8. Henry Akinwande
9. Jorge Luis Gonzalez
10. Lionel Butler

Title Vacant

1. Rid**** Bowe
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Bruce Seldon
7. Frank Bruno
8. George Foreman
9. Alexander Zolkin
10. Henry Akinwand

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Andrew Golota
6. Ray Mercer
7. Henry Akinwande
8. David Tua
9. Rid**** Bowe
10. Tim Witherspoon

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Moorer
4. Ray Mercer
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. George Foreman
7. Shannon Briggs
8. Ike Ibeabuchi
9. David Tua
10. David Izon

Title Vacant

1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Michael Grant
4. Michael Moorer
5. Shannon Briggs
6. Chris Byrd
7. Ike Ibeabuchi
8. David Tua
9. Andrew Golota
10. Hasim Rahman

Title Vacant

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Evander Holyfield
3. Michael Grant
4. Ike Ibeabuchi
5. David Tua
6. Mike Tyson
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. Andrew Golota
9. Derrick Jefferson
10. Oleg Maskaev

âRetired!


It was Evander The Real Deal Holyfield's era. He made it happen. I don't what to hear **** about but Bowe doe, but King doe, like as if Evander did not have to deal with the same exact characters. He made it happen, Lennox Lewis did **** all nothing but wait.



Started his career late, avoided anything that would see him mix with the boys any time their best, and still struggled






Yeah, I'll get into how he avoided being a real champion for money soon enough but ATM I'm finna have some dinner! That said, I didn't allude so all I'll be doing is adding deets. If you want to go ahead and explain how selling his belts to fight a hypejob and adding more belts to each division helped boxing go ahead.


This ****ing guys gets credit for beating guys whose only good win is him. How TF is that a resume win?

Lewis was castigated by the American media. He was pretty much denied any real fame, when he did make it clear he was not going anywhere Larry merchant made sure to bury him after the Vitalie fight. You want parallels? Show me the Larry Holmes era. You cannot because Larry was always seen as a shadow of Ali, that is until recently. Give history some time and I predict you will see the Lennox Lewis era. The media had a totally different perspective regarding Black Americans from the mean streets of Murica. Holyfield and Tyson were given the red carpet and could do no wrong...

Even Vegas was silly... I made a small fortune betting on Lewy for all his fights! Collectively Lewis was seen as a threat to the myth of the American heavyweight. The last great American heavyweight that represented a region might have been Tyson. Maybe Holly... Though neither fighter fought in a way suggesting a region. Tim Witherspoon fought like a Philly heavyweight, like Frazier did... Moorer fought like a Michigan Kronk's gym heavyweight... These guys were regional fighters. Lewis wiped out the stink of arrogance and privalege which the boxing establishment had created... So he was hated.

[Anomalocaris]

Lewis was castigated by the American media. He was pretty much denied any real fame, when he did make it clear he was not going anywhere Larry merchant made sure to bury him after the Vitalie fight. You want parallels? Show me the Larry Holmes era. You cannot because Larry was always seen as a shadow of Ali, that is until recently. Give history some time and I predict you will see the Lennox Lewis era. The media had a totally different perspective regarding Black Americans from the mean streets of Murica. Holyfield and Tyson were given the red carpet and could do no wrong...

Even Vegas was silly... I made a small fortune betting on Lewy for all his fights! Collectively Lewis was seen as a threat to the myth of the American heavyweight. The last great American heavyweight that represented a region might have been Tyson. Maybe Holly... Though neither fighter fought in a way suggesting a region. Tim Witherspoon fought like a Philly heavyweight, like Frazier did... Moorer fought like a Michigan Kronk's gym heavyweight... These guys were regional fighters. Lewis wiped out the stink of arrogance and privalege which the boxing establishment had created... So he was hated.

Absolutely brilliant post the sheer hatred of Lewis in the US boxing media was obscene.

I just loved it when they built up Grant to be some unstoppable force and Lennox iced him in two.

[Mr Mitts]

GOAT candidate actually



The same exact posters who say things like Holy should be discredited for roids, despite Holy having never popped dirty, will defend a litany of champions who didn't even bother making any pretense of fairness or global representation.

I agree, especially in red. Candidate only means he is in the discussion at least for a while. I can accept that. Hard time for him to actually be voted GOAT, but he does have numerous qualities the GOAT will have to possess anyway--extreme courage, extreme will, the ability to respond under fire and fatigue, exceptional chin, extreme heart, boxing ability and a good punch, fights anybody--so he is at least in the GOAT conversation as an apotheotic example of many particular qualities and accomplishments the GOAT will need.

[Marchegiano]

Lewis was castigated by the American media. He was pretty much denied any real fame, when he did make it clear he was not going anywhere Larry merchant made sure to bury him after the Vitalie fight. You want parallels? Show me the Larry Holmes era. You cannot because Larry was always seen as a shadow of Ali, that is until recently. Give history some time and I predict you will see the Lennox Lewis era. The media had a totally different perspective regarding Black Americans from the mean streets of Murica. Holyfield and Tyson were given the red carpet and could do no wrong...

Even Vegas was silly... I made a small fortune betting on Lewy for all his fights! Collectively Lewis was seen as a threat to the myth of the American heavyweight. The last great American heavyweight that represented a region might have been Tyson. Maybe Holly... Though neither fighter fought in a way suggesting a region. Tim Witherspoon fought like a Philly heavyweight, like Frazier did... Moorer fought like a Michigan Kronk's gym heavyweight... These guys were regional fighters. Lewis wiped out the stink of arrogance and privalege which the boxing establishment had created... So he was hated.

Absolutely brilliant post the sheer hatred of Lewis in the US boxing media was obscene.

I just loved it when they built up Grant to be some unstoppable force and Lennox iced him in two.

It's a clever way to avoid saying, but he had issues to deal with that Holyfield didn't, without saying it, I'll give youse that.



Lewis was rightly handled by American media. It was him who was the issue, he loves money.


Lewis had to be paid handsomely or given a no hoper. But it's okay, he can get KTFO by them and make them a resume win by beating them back later.


Lewis finally steps up, get his undisputed, and then immediately sells his title. But that's okay. Somehow it's America's fault Lennox fought Grant. Nothing to do with Ruiz being a stall master and Grant being an easy showy fight that pays well. Juxtapositioning from American media and **** talking is what guided Lennox's career


Lennox just jumped in the ring is Vitlles too right? Didn't use a Mike Tyson rematch as bargaining? In fact didn't it take Vitali years and some level of WBC ****ery to bring him in as a "late replacement"? Oh but it was America doe, King doe, anybody but Lennox ****ing Lewis doe. I'm sure Vitali was just so, so hard to deal with Lennox simply never did.


Lennox Lewis sure does seem to always have an excuse for **** Lennox Lewis does to himself, but yo it were Larry Merchant's ****sucker that caused it doe


Then when he retired he made sure to give one last gift for fighters like himself who place glory and status above maximum returns by directing the WBA toward the Regular title.


Let me just point out, not only did I not hide from his resume, by my estimation I gave it very little challenge and yet still the goal post is changed from resume to promotion and Maloney taking a raping from King and Arum over at HBO. I didn't hide from that either but it'll not be me who takes the credit for the direction changes in this conversation.

So yeah, beat that trumpet all you like but Lewis didn't work with Shaw any better than he did King. He got out maneuvered by a superior handler and forced into something he didn't want to do. Then retired to avoid repeating the process. Then added the much loved Reg to our midst.



But yeah, earned this fandom, sure, but Evander can be questioned if he's even an ATG. Sure.