By Your Criteria Is Holyfield An ATG Heavyweight?

[Marchegiano]

I was a huge Holyfield fan as a kid, but have a hard time finding an avenue for him to GOAT. He wasn't the best heavyweight of his era (Lewis), doesn't have the best resume of wins (Ali), doesn't have a dominant run like Louis.

What path do you see for him to be GOAT at heavy?

Strong disagree bro.



I include a full fighter's run. Holyfield's a CW champion too and arguably the greatest. Not saying you have to yourself, just if you want to argue with me about my choices you need to understand them.

For timing I do look at who was in amateurs together. JIC, yes, they were all amateurs together.


It's Lewis with the weak resume built on sitting on ass while Mike and Evander make the division. Mike gathered the belts but it was Holyfield and Holyfield alone who made the biggest fights of that era happen. He didn't always win them but he didn't sit on ass aging his peers out in the spotlight while he waits in shadows for their weakness to be exposed.

Mike gathered thee HW

Evander gathered the CW

Lennox played grabass for a few years.




Did Lennox hand Mike his first loss? Nahh dog, during that time he was busy playing pattycake with the great Calvin Jones

Got Evander doe right? Ya know, given he domed the era? What? Nah doe?! **** Lennox, dominate as he were, had stepped up to the likes of Dereck Williams doe!

When Mike lost who beat the Mike beater? Evander, not Lennox, he was busy with guys who'd never sniff a title. Evander put himself in position. Evander was knocking on that door. Evander proved he was the man to beat. Lennox Lewis dominated the era though, not Holyfield

Oh but in a year the great Lennox Lewis would be at the British level doe.

Bowe and Moorer, not Lennox Lewis, topple the now aging king.

Lennox moves to the Euro level

Mike Tyson destroys Lewis's Euro level competition

Bowe refuses Euro-level Lewis who is mailed a championship status - One of the only elevated to champion fighters who didn't get shat on for being handed a title due to politics.

Now Lewis is champion who is left but old men and no hopers? Tucker for his first defense, Bruno, Jackson, McCall, now we're really building a resume here

Mike and Evander finally get in the ring about a decade late. Now, now the great, dominant, Lennox Lewis, now he's in position. Now he's somewhere in the mix. Now he might fight Evander or Mike. You know, a decade late and a handful of Ls later.

Oh wait, nah doe, it'd take him another half decade to pull the trigger while Evander and Mike do absolutely nothing impressive and waste away.

Still takes Lennox Lewis a few years to give his balls a tug and despite him winning it isn't as if Lennox ever hide why he was so tentative or why he was upset after his win over Tyson.

Lennox, between Evander and Mike, immediately drops the title for money, invents the regular title, and begins a campaign for multiple champions per division.

Then he's finally ready to fight Mike.

One more fight to show he can't outclass Vitali but he does have rougher skin.




SUPER dominant



IMO Lennox Lewis was a bit of a *****. A bit of a hypejob. A bit of a well timed padded record whose achievements amount to "I was there when Mike and Evander fell!"



In contrast, the ghost of Holyfield was able to pick up titles. Holyfield exposed still grabbed the only x4 x4 x4 x4 HW champion of the world.



Not the GOAT? Maybe, ya know, if you bring Ali or Louis into this ****.


Mike has 6 defenses

Evander has 3

Lewis has 0


Dominant one? Proved he was the better one in the end? My ass, dude saw his real comp in Amateurs and avoided them until they were spent up. Did **** all anything outside of that. His best wins are guys whose biggest victories are HIM not taking them seriously. Lennox Lewis dominated **** all nothing. We swept the end and went home before another no hoper made a name off KOing him again.

[Anomalocaris]

Strong disagree bro.



I include a full fighter's run. Holyfield's a CW champion too and arguably the greatest. Not saying you have to yourself, just if you want to argue with me about my choices you need to understand them.

For timing I do look at who was in amateurs together. JIC, yes, they were all amateurs together.


It's Lewis with the weak resume built on sitting on ass while Mike and Evander make the division. Mike gathered the belts but it was Holyfield and Holyfield alone who made the biggest fights of that era happen. He didn't always win them but he didn't sit on ass aging his peers out in the spotlight while he waits in shadows for their weakness to be exposed.

Mike gathered thee HW

Evander gathered the CW

Lennox played grabass for a few years.




Did Lennox hand Mike his first loss? Nahh dog, during that time he was busy playing pattycake with the great Calvin Jones

Got Evander doe right? Ya know, given he domed the era? What? Nah doe?! **** Lennox, dominate as he were, had stepped up to the likes of Dereck Williams doe!

When Mike lost who beat the Mike beater? Evander, not Lennox, he was busy with guys who'd never sniff a title. Evander put himself in position. Evander was knocking on that door. Evander proved he was the man to beat. Lennox Lewis dominated the era though, not Holyfield

Oh but in a year the great Lennox Lewis would be at the British level doe.

Bowe and Moorer, not Lennox Lewis, topple the now aging king.

Lennox moves to the Euro level

Mike Tyson destroys Lewis's Euro level competition

Bowe refuses Euro-level Lewis who is mailed a championship status - One of the only elevated to champion fighters who didn't get shat on for being handed a title due to politics.

Now Lewis is champion who is left but old men and no hopers? Tucker for his first defense, Bruno, Jackson, McCall, now we're really building a resume here

Mike and Evander finally get in the ring about a decade late. Now, now the great, dominant, Lennox Lewis, now he's in position. Now he's somewhere in the mix. Now he might fight Evander or Mike. You know, a decade late and a handful of Ls later.

Oh wait, nah doe, it'd take him another half decade to pull the trigger while Evander and Mike do absolutely nothing impressive and waste away.

Still takes Lennox Lewis a few years to give his balls a tug and despite him winning it isn't as if Lennox ever hide why he was so tentative or why he was upset after his win over Tyson.

Lennox, between Evander and Mike, immediately drops the title for money, invents the regular title, and begins a campaign for multiple champions per division.

Then he's finally ready to fight Mike.

One more fight to show he can't outclass Vitali but he does have rougher skin.




SUPER dominant



IMO Lennox Lewis was a bit of a *****. A bit of a hypejob. A bit of a well timed padded record whose achievements amount to "I was there when Mike and Evander fell!"



In contrast, the ghost of Holyfield was able to pick up titles. Holyfield exposed still grabbed the only x4 x4 x4 x4 HW champion of the world.



Not the GOAT? Maybe, ya know, if you bring Ali or Louis into this ****.


Mike has 6 defenses

Evander has 3

Lewis has 0


Dominant one? Proved he was the better one in the end? My ass, dude saw his real comp in Amateurs and avoided them until they were spent up. Did **** all anything outside of that. His best wins are guys whose biggest victories are HIM not taking them seriously. Lennox Lewis dominated **** all nothing. We swept the end and went home before another no hoper made a name off KOing him again.

Lewis defeated all the fighters Tyson avoided after prison, what great heavy did he beat in his first run barring Holmes who was a ring rusty 38, did not train and was just in it for the money?

Lennox fought a murderer's row of top class fighters and huge punchers at their peak.

Arguably a level of competition only beaten by Ali.

Weak resume?

I don't think so.

[QueensburyRules]

Evan Fields aside, imho Evander is an ATG boxer but not an ATG heavyweight. I feel the same about Usyk simply because he hasn't fought much at HW & to me, a longer dominant run at a weight is a more important criterion then sweeping up in a few fights a la his bro Lomachenko.

Until Usyk, Evander was number 1 cruiser ever. Combine that with what he did at heavy & that's a very special guy indeed.

- - Oh Dear, a noob, eh?

Usyk Gold Medal Heavyweight unified both Cruiser and Hvy currently has a pro record of 29-0 with 16 KOs. Moreover, 32 World Title Belts were on the line. Now that's just a sign of the times of Title proliferation, yet the fighters he beat are on average the Biggest and Heaviest ever seen for a champion boxer.

And he won't hang on stinking up the joint like Evan. Top 10 heavy with Joe Louis being number 1.

[Marchegiano]

Lewis defeated all the fighters Tyson avoided after prison, what great heavy did he beat in his first run barring Holmes who was a ring rusty 38, did not train and was just in it for the money?

Lennox fought a murderer's row of top class fighters and huge punchers at their peak.

Arguably a level of competition only beaten by Ali.

Weak resume?

I don't think so.

I think it's interesting you talk **** about Mike's resume prior to Lennox and cite the men Lennox beat while Mike was in prison as somehow anything but Mike Tyson's leftovers or worse.

After Mike went to prison?! Mike Tyson's time in prison is 92-95 ennit?

Bilups
Aforementioned Williams
Dixon
Razor
Tucker
Bruno
McCall
Butler
Fortune
Morrison

That is all of 92-95 not just the time that overlaps Mike's prison sentence.

Let me remake that list in very clear standing:

no hoper
no hoper
no hoper
Tyson leftover
Tyson leftover
Tyson leftover
no hoper and leftover for other men already listed
no hoper
no hoper
No hoper

I liked Morrison and McCall myself but their time is over and nothing will change what happened. They proved they ain't had it.



Lennox Lewis's time as champion is nothing even close to special or even above the lowest possible bar for world champion status. It is the names you argue for, the subjectivity, not anything this man actually achieved. We have heaps of champions whose resume features leftover of the past champion mixed with no hoper hypejobs of the era who simply touched the title for their time and gave it up immediately.

Even if I give him credit and refuse to acknowledge the strip he caused and do not hold his solution, the creation of multiple champions per body per division, against him, you're talking about what ancient Mike Tyson? Rahman? Tua? I like Tua, hell I like Rahman, we really having an ATG debate based on those names though? Can't possibly be the great and powerful Grant that makes Lennox so highly adored, but maybe it's Botha though



Lennox a bunch of smoke and mirrors and the suspension of critical thought, mostly, I suspect, from folks trying to defend a stance they formed while they had to be ignorant to the facts. No ****ing way in 99 you knew all of Lennox's history up to that point because it wasn't published. But you're still defending the cat like it is 99 I reckon.

[billeau2]

Strong disagree bro.



I include a full fighter's run. Holyfield's a CW champion too and arguably the greatest. Not saying you have to yourself, just if you want to argue with me about my choices you need to understand them.

For timing I do look at who was in amateurs together. JIC, yes, they were all amateurs together.


It's Lewis with the weak resume built on sitting on ass while Mike and Evander make the division. Mike gathered the belts but it was Holyfield and Holyfield alone who made the biggest fights of that era happen. He didn't always win them but he didn't sit on ass aging his peers out in the spotlight while he waits in shadows for their weakness to be exposed.

Mike gathered thee HW

Evander gathered the CW

Lennox played grabass for a few years.




Did Lennox hand Mike his first loss? Nahh dog, during that time he was busy playing pattycake with the great Calvin Jones

Got Evander doe right? Ya know, given he domed the era? What? Nah doe?! **** Lennox, dominate as he were, had stepped up to the likes of Dereck Williams doe!

When Mike lost who beat the Mike beater? Evander, not Lennox, he was busy with guys who'd never sniff a title. Evander put himself in position. Evander was knocking on that door. Evander proved he was the man to beat. Lennox Lewis dominated the era though, not Holyfield

Oh but in a year the great Lennox Lewis would be at the British level doe.

Bowe and Moorer, not Lennox Lewis, topple the now aging king.

Lennox moves to the Euro level

Mike Tyson destroys Lewis's Euro level competition

Bowe refuses Euro-level Lewis who is mailed a championship status - One of the only elevated to champion fighters who didn't get shat on for being handed a title due to politics.

Now Lewis is champion who is left but old men and no hopers? Tucker for his first defense, Bruno, Jackson, McCall, now we're really building a resume here

Mike and Evander finally get in the ring about a decade late. Now, now the great, dominant, Lennox Lewis, now he's in position. Now he's somewhere in the mix. Now he might fight Evander or Mike. You know, a decade late and a handful of Ls later.

Oh wait, nah doe, it'd take him another half decade to pull the trigger while Evander and Mike do absolutely nothing impressive and waste away.

Still takes Lennox Lewis a few years to give his balls a tug and despite him winning it isn't as if Lennox ever hide why he was so tentative or why he was upset after his win over Tyson.

Lennox, between Evander and Mike, immediately drops the title for money, invents the regular title, and begins a campaign for multiple champions per division.

Then he's finally ready to fight Mike.

One more fight to show he can't outclass Vitali but he does have rougher skin.




SUPER dominant



IMO Lennox Lewis was a bit of a *****. A bit of a hypejob. A bit of a well timed padded record whose achievements amount to "I was there when Mike and Evander fell!"



In contrast, the ghost of Holyfield was able to pick up titles. Holyfield exposed still grabbed the only x4 x4 x4 x4 HW champion of the world.



Not the GOAT? Maybe, ya know, if you bring Ali or Louis into this ****.


Mike has 6 defenses

Evander has 3

Lewis has 0


Dominant one? Proved he was the better one in the end? My ass, dude saw his real comp in Amateurs and avoided them until they were spent up. Did **** all anything outside of that. His best wins are guys whose biggest victories are HIM not taking them seriously. Lennox Lewis dominated **** all nothing. We swept the end and went home before another no hoper made a name off KOing him again.

Andrew Golata
Shannon Briggs
Dave Tua
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Vitalie Klitsko
Razor Ruddock
Tommy Morrison

Should I go on? Lewis was no hype job... And he beat Evander... twice to those who watch fights.

[Marchegiano]

Andrew Golata
Shannon Briggs
Dave Tua
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Vitalie Klitsko
Razor Ruddock
Tommy Morrison

Should I go on? Lewis was no hype job... And he beat Evander... twice to those who watch fights.

I already responded to a post that supplements a response with a resume between that one and this so forgive me if by way of shortness I seem rude. I'm just being to the point:

I don't see anything here that even attempts to detract from anything I said. I'm pretty sure you'll find none of my post hide from his resume. So why am I addressing resume again while you say nothing to the charge Lennox Lewis sat on ass while Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield created the era he then cashed in on and left in far worse condition than he found?

[BKM-]

I don't think any HW aside from Ali has bigger wins than Holyfield. The only things holding him are his peak HW years were limited(I mean peak physically) and he lost a few of those due to health problems which cost him losses.

The second is that due to his brawling ways shortening that peak, he did not have just enough left in the tank to score a win over Lennox Lewis who is one of the greatest HW's and in his prime at that time. He was so close though.

Boy if he had won that fight you could argue he was the HW GOAT. Bowe, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Moorer, Holmes, Mercer, Douglas, Ruiz, 3x champ. Maybe still Ali but you can't get much better than that kind of record.

[JAB5239]

I don't think any HW aside from Ali has bigger wins than Holyfield. The only things holding him are his peak HW years were limited(I mean peak physically) and he lost a few of those due to health problems which cost him losses.

The second is that due to his brawling ways shortening that peak, he did not have just enough left in the tank to score a win over Lennox Lewis who is one of the greatest HW's and in his prime at that time. He was so close though.

Boy if he had won that fight you could argue he was the HW GOAT. Bowe, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Moorer, Holmes, Mercer, Douglas, Ruiz, 3x champ. Maybe still Ali but you can't get much better than that kind of record.

Good post! I may be wrong, but he way i remember it was the second Holy-Lewis fight was closer (on the cards) than the first. I may have it backwards though as it's been awhile since I've watched them.

[BKM-]

Good post! I may be wrong, but he way i remember it was the second Holy-Lewis fight was closer (on the cards) than the first. I may have it backwards though as it's been awhile since I've watched them.

It's been a few years for me as well but I watched and scored both fights. 1st fight for Lewis, second fight had a couple of rounds that could go either way so the type of fight where either guy can have a close decision win.

Being a fan of both, I hoped Evander would get the W in the rematch so we could have gotten a rubber match(enhancing both men's legacies in the process) but since they screwed up the first fight so badly they had to give it to Lennox.

[billeau2]

I already responded to a post that supplements a response with a resume between that one and this so forgive me if by way of shortness I seem rude. I'm just being to the point:

I don't see anything here that even attempts to detract from anything I said. I'm pretty sure you'll find none of my post hide from his resume. So why am I addressing resume again while you say nothing to the charge Lennox Lewis sat on ass while Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield created the era he then cashed in on and left in far worse condition than he found?

I don't know about all that "leaving" but padna lewis fought a bevy of young lions when they were able. I tink eras are dialectical, their substance is only that which synthesises them anew into a new era. Lewis' era was not bad, it was a very strong division. But if it makes you feel better? I can give credit to the development of that era vis a vis the work of Holly and Tyson.

But how did he leave it in bad condition? He cleaned the division out...