The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[Ben Bolt]

But Ring stopped awarding their title belts in the mid 90s, because with 3 recognised alphabet titles, and champions retiring or relinquishing one belt to fight for another, the lineages were too complicated to keep track of. They brought their title belt back in 2002, but the present version of the Ring title uses Ring's own ratings, rather than lineages, to decide who the true champion is,

Lineal or not, I don’t have any issues with how The Ring crowns their champions today, and I still think it's the finest award you can achieve between the ropes. The Ring hands out their titles to the boxer they consider is the best – on sporting merits, only. Their title doesn’t come with a fee.

Unlike the titles of the boxing orgs. No matter if you are the undoubtedly best in your weight class – unless you pay any of the orgs a bribe, called sanctioning fee (whoever pays it, the boxer himself or the promoter or, which seems to have happened at times, the TV companies), you will not get their recognition.

The organizations promise a lot in exchange for the sanctioning fees, but one would like to see a public accounting of how the money is used and how it benefits the individual boxer.
As I understand it, the well-being of the fighter, or pension funds, are not covered by the sanctioning fees.
And the question remains, if someone is the very best in his division, wouldn't it be obvious for an organization that claims to protect the sport of boxing to announce the very best as world champion?

[kafkod]

OK! We are on the same page. That is a compromise I can live with.

So now it is time for you to get on the band wagon with us, and make boxing great again (MBGA).

Up the lineal title, the SBs can sod off.

Sorry, but a title that only exists in the minds of hardcore boxing fans - and the people who want to sell fights to casual fans - is not going to MBGA.

My evidence for this: Tyson Fury vs Sefer Seferi, Francesco Pianta, Tom Schwarz, and Otto Wallin were all sold as "lineal world title" fights. To lineal purists, like the guys I've been going back and forth with in this thread, Fury vs Ngannou was also a lineal title fight.

I rest my case.

[kafkod]

Lineal or not, I don’t have any issues with how The Ring crowns their champions today, and I still think it's the finest award you can achieve between the ropes. The Ring hands out their titles to the boxer they consider is the best – on sporting merits, only. Their title doesn’t come with a fee.

Unlike the titles of the boxing orgs. No matter if you are the undoubtedly best in your weight class – unless you pay any of the orgs a bribe, called sanctioning fee (whoever pays it, the boxer himself or the promoter or, which seems to have happened at times, the TV companies), you will not get their recognition.

The organizations promise a lot in exchange for the sanctioning fees, but one would like to see a public accounting of how the money is used and how it benefits the individual boxer.
As I understand it, the well-being of the fighter, or pension funds, are not covered by the sanctioning fees.
And the question remains, if someone is the very best in his division, wouldn't it be obvious for an organization that claims to protect the sport of boxing to announce the very best as world champion?

I agree that The Ring title is more credible than any of the alphabet belts. And the more casual fans who recognise that the better, as far as I'm concerned.

But the way things are right now, The Ring can afford to be pure as the driven snow because they are riding piggy-back on the alphabet orgs when they award their belts. EG, the current Ring HW champ is Usyk. He won their title when he defeated AJ for the second time. The Usyk/AJ rematch was a huge fight because the IBF, WBO and WBA titles were all on the line. It was sold and marketed as a 3 belt world title unification fight - not a Ring Magazine title fight - and those 3 sanctioning orgs did a lot of the complicated work involved in staging and organising a fight as big as that.

The Ring did nothing but announce that they were going to award their title to the winner.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Ring titles come with responsibilities. Ring champions can be stripped if they don't defend against a Ring ranked opponent within a mandated time, which is how Tyson Fury lost his first Ring title.

And of course, the lineal purists still recognised Fury as the REAL world champion, even after The Ring stripped him

[Willie Pep 229]

I agree that The Ring title is more credible than any of the alphabet belts. And the more casual fans who recognise that the better, as far as I'm concerned.

But the way things are right now, The Ring can afford to be pure as the driven snow because they are riding piggy-back on the alphabet orgs when they award their belts. EG, the current Ring HW champ is Usyk. He won their title when he defeated AJ for the second time. The Usyk/AJ rematch was a huge fight because the IBF, WBO and WBA titles were all on the line. It was sold and marketed as a 3 belt world title unification fight - not a Ring Magazine title fight - and those 3 sanctioning orgs did a lot of the complicated work involved in staging and organising a fight as big as that.

The Ring did nothing but announce that they were going to award their title to the winner.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Ring titles come with responsibilities. Ring champions can be stripped if they don't defend against a Ring ranked opponent within a mandated time, which is how Tyson Fury lost his first Ring title.

And of course, the lineal purists still recognised Fury as the REAL world champion, even after The Ring stripped him

Can you explain what you mean by the boldface above?

When did cashing a check become complicated?

The commissions and promoters do the real work (as best as I understand it.)

When you say 'real work' do you mean agreeing to steal and equal amount of money from the fighters.

Because other than agreeing to get out of the way (after being paid-off) I really can't get see what purpose they serve in staging a fight.

[kafkod]

Can you explain what you mean by the boldface above?

When did cashing a check become complicated?

The commissions and promoters do the real work (as best as I understand it.)

When you say 'real work' do you mean agreeing to steal and equal amount of money from the fighters.

Because other than agreeing to get out of the way (after being paid-off) I really can't get see what purpose they serve in staging a fight.

They do a lot more than that. I only have sketchy, outsiders knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes of a world title fight, but I believe they select and appoint the officials - ref, judges, timekeeper etc, and work with the lead promoter and sanctioning commission on stuff like medical cover, rules oversight, PED testing, etc.

They also order mandatories, and strip champions who don't comply. Usyk only became the champ because the WBO ordered AJ to defend their title against him. Without that order from the WBO, Usyk would have been king of the who-needs-him-club after he moved up from CW.

[Ben Bolt]

those 3 sanctioning orgs did a lot of the complicated work involved in staging and organising a fight as big as that.

I must contradict you on this one. It’s because the sanctioning orgs that things get complicated. 99 percent of the time they refuse to cooperate.

In an 2018 Daily Mirror article, the paper wrote about how Anthony Joshua had to pay £270,000 of his own money in sanction fees for a title defense. “Sanctioning fees rack up” he said.
“We can’t just throw one [belt] away, we are trying to make history. The obvious thing to do is to win all the belts – that’s what you should set out for.”

What was the point? As soon as you become a unified champion, one or two of the orgs (or all) will deprive you of their title.

Speaking to the Mirror again in 2022, Joshua said the belts “didn’t mean s*it” and was annoyed at the price he had paid in sanctioning fees.
“None of them belts do, it is what it is. They just f***ing taking my sanctioning fees and they literally just look good when I go to show all the kids and say 'look at my belts'.”
[…] I'm going to dash these belts.”

Joshua wasn’t keen on The Ring belt either, but at least, The Ring hadn't swindled him out of any money.

[Willie Pep 229]

They do a lot more than that. I only have sketchy, outsiders knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes of a world title fight, but I believe they select and appoint the officials - ref, judges, timekeeper etc, and work with the lead promoter and sanctioning commission on stuff like medical cover, rules oversight, PED testing, etc.

They also order mandatories, and strip champions who don't comply. Usyk only became the champ because the WBO ordered AJ to defend their title against him. Without that order from the WBO, Usyk would have been king of the who-needs-him-club after he moved up from CW.

I believe the first paragraph describes the commission the second paragraph the SBs.

We can do without the second paragraph we have the lineal title instead.

[kafkod]

I must contradict you on this one. It’s because the sanctioning orgs that things get complicated. 99 percent of the time they refuse to cooperate.

In an 2018 Daily Mirror article, the paper wrote about how Anthony Joshua had to pay £270,000 of his own money in sanction fees for a title defense. “Sanctioning fees rack up” he said.
“We can’t just throw one [belt] away, we are trying to make history. The obvious thing to do is to win all the belts – that’s what you should set out for.”

What was the point? As soon as you become a unified champion, one or two of the orgs (or all) will deprive you of their title.

Speaking to the Mirror again in 2022, Joshua said the belts “didn’t mean s*it” and was annoyed at the price he had paid in sanctioning fees.
“None of them belts do, it is what it is. They just f***ing taking my sanctioning fees and they literally just look good when I go to show all the kids and say 'look at my belts'.”
[…] I'm going to dash these belts.”

Joshua wasn’t keen on The Ring belt either, but at least, The Ring hadn't swindled him out of any money.

I believe the first paragraph describes the commission the second paragraph the SBs.

We can do without the second paragraph we have the lineal title instead.

I checked it out and you are correct there Willie.

The alphabets orgs do have a necessary role though. Boxing needs universally recognised titles, and there have to be rules in place to keep title holders honest. As I have already pointed out, Usyk would never have become lineal champ if the WBO hadn't ordered AJ to fight him in a mandatory defence.

But 4 recognised world titles in every division is definitely detrimental to the sport. I'm not going to argue with anybody about that.

And bear this in mind - if there was only one recognised world title, the lineage would take care of itself, as long as there were rules in place to ensure that the champion defended his title against top contenders regularly, which goes against the ethos of the lineal title, as the lineal purists perceive it.

A title which, once won, can only be lost in the ring, is wide open to exploitation.

[Coverdale]

I checked it out and you are correct there Willie.

The alphabets orgs do have a necessary role though. Boxing needs universally recognised titles, and there have to be rules in place to keep title holders honest. As I have already pointed out, Usyk would never have become lineal champ if the WBO hadn't ordered AJ to fight him in a mandatory defence.

But 4 recognised world titles in every division is definitely detrimental to the sport. I'm not going to argue with anybody about that.

And bear this in mind - if there was only one recognised world title, the lineage would take care of itself, as long as there were rules in place to ensure that the champion defended his title against top contenders regularly, which goes against the ethos of the lineal title, as the lineal purists perceive it.

A title which, once won, can only be lost in the ring, is wide open to exploitation.

The sanctioning bodies seem to be hindering the cruiserweight division at the moment. Opetaia and Ramirez's schedule has been off due to mandatory obligations which are less attractive than them fighting each other, which cannot be ordered as a mandatory because they both hold sanctioning body belts.

Meanwhile, the WBC has created an utter mess of a situation which almost guarantees their belt will not be held by the best fighter in the division any time soon.

[Ben Bolt]

The alphabets orgs do have a necessary role though.

I'm sure it would, if there was only one. Add another one, and it’s a mess.

I just watched the French Open final. Tennis, like boxing an individual sport, controlled by one all-embracing body, the ITF. But then, tennis has it’s house in order. Like most other sports.

Boxing has failed. The four orgs have been allowed to increase their power through acceptance (for this I blame later generation boxing journalists), and I believe it’s too late to wind the clock back.
Personally, I have given up hope of any change and therefore don’t follow boxing that much anymore. Which is perhaps a good thing for my moral edification, since there is an ethically questionable aspect to enjoying watching two healthy fellows try to knock each other unconscious.