The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[Anomalocaris]

Fury is held in total contempt now.

I really wonder why.

The Wilder 2 version could have given any heavy who ever lived pure unadulterated hell.

[tokon]

Yeah. Exactly, that's the way it has played out.

To understand the lineal title you have to know boxing. You have to understand the logic, the unwritten rules, the precedents.

But because this takes actual knowledge, of the fight game's history, casuals will gravitate towards the sanctioning bodies.

The casual can point to a priinted SB name.

If often takes a paragraph to explain why this guy is the lineal champ and this guy isn't.

You have to know the history to respect the lineal title.

Yes, understanding the lineal takes knowledge so, with acknowledgement to Anomalocaris, where - in your opinion - does Fury with his PED ban fit into that process?

[Willie Pep 229]

Yes, understanding the lineal takes knowledge so, with acknowledgement to Anomalocaris, where - in your opinion - does Fury with his PED ban fit into that process?

He was champion after the snooze fest with Wald. He sat, his out of shape azz, on the title while Joshua positioned himself for a mega fight.

Fury finally made himself available but AJ stumbled against Ruiz throwing the timeline out of wack.

Fury fought Wilder one time too many; AJ stumbled again with Usyk; Usyk beats AJ twice and Usyk beats Fury twice.

Usyk gets the nod.

W. Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

AJ gets remembered as an almost.

Sorry not sure what you wanted.

[Coverdale]

Fury is held in total contempt now.

I really wonder why.

The Wilder 2 version could have given any heavy who ever lived pure unadulterated hell.

It's because he didn't fight a proper heavyweight campaign. The fact you have to pinpoint a single fight as evidence of his historical standing tells its own story. We don't need to do that with Lennox Lewis.

[Marchegiano]

Let me reword, realign, and adjust:


One of you older guys, it has to be one of you and not me because of your actual connection to the era, needs to tell this story including details most fans take for granted when speaking to other fans. Trust me when I say if I didn't know Ali well he's super easy to look up because he's just barely older than yesterday. I do not think it should come from a younger poster .... You know you're in history section when a man in his 30ths is a younger member . I want a dude who used or still does overuse the word man, man, and I don't think I really need to even qualify why. It's the most obvious thing in the world; connection.

Who was president? I need to google that to keep me straight, I don't remember offhand because it's historical trivia to me not part of my lifetime. Dig? I think LBJ but I'm really going to google it to be sure.

I don't mean just verbiage, I don't mean just mannerism, or knowledge, just everything, yes, all of it. Youse are closer to the era if not from it.



I understand Ali was stripped because he dodged the draft. Like as in I understand those words just fine, but what TF actually happened? LBJ told the NYSAC? I don't understand the exact mechanisms that actually forces Ali to be stripped or who TF benefitted. Why would the WBA strip Ali for some American crime?



The title says The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing ... Not only do I think any one of youse could include far more details, but I think if you think about it you want to. It's a good topic.

[billeau2]

No one was talking the WBC in 1970-71.

The way it went . . .

The NYSAC recognized the Buster Mathis-Joe Frazier fight for their vacant title. (March 1968)

The WBA Tournament ended with Jimmy Ellis winning a snoozer against Jerry Quarry. (April 1968)

The Ring Magazine declared their title vacant when Ali anounced he was 'officially' retiring. (1970)

Frazier (NYSAC) vs. Ellis (WBA) gave us an 'undisputed' champion. The Ring Magazine recognized the winner Frazier as HW Champion. (Februray 1970)

The NYSAC anounced it would no longer recognize champions.

Frazier-Ali (March 1971) took us back to the lineal championship. (The WBC tried to jump on this band wagon but we didn't notice them.)

The WBC chased after Frazier like a small dog following a parade but no one on the street was talking the WBC. Except maybe some Mexicans and a few burros.

The WBC didn't come to the forefront until Foreman KOed Frazier in February 1973, and Don King needed a sanctioning body he could manipulate. Then we got the WBC shoved down our throats by Don King.

The WBA and the WBC split over the Leon Spinks fight (2) with the WBA recognizing the rematch and the WBC stripping Neon Leon of their title.

Don King had no control over Leon Spinks as Bob Arum promoted both of the Ali-Spinks fights. So Don King encouraged Sulaiman to strip Neon Leon.

The WBC then held the Holmes-Norton fight for the vacant title. Promoted by none other than Don King.

The two SBs would not join again until Tyson.

Thank you pep. This just totally makes the point I was trying to make. This is how I remember things and when I looked up the information again It was confirmed.

[billeau2]

You may be giving me too much respect because of my wealth of knowledge dealing with older issues. I have no shame in saying, probably, everyone here, including Queen, knows this subject better than I do. I have never done any independent research into Ali or this situation.


That said, I am not so sold the same industry that rejected him had little or nothing to do with his return, or that it was begrudging. How does any Promoter benefit from Ali being stripped due to some American war? Seems like Uncle Sam was the enemy and big money, fans sure, but also industry, was the hero.


DK can sell me undisputed for 99 cents any day bro. But I think you might need DK for it to happen. Or at least I do not understand what his or any motivation to prevent Ali would be. If anything, isn't this what opened Ali up to King over Arum?

Let me remind you, I'd rate Queen over me here, so talk to me like I am ****** if you have to but don't assume I know. I'm really not leading to anything. I got nothing to lead with.

You go right to motivations... And I would do the same thing a million times over. Motivations tell us surprisingly amounts of information about circumstances. Do I believe in alien life? Of all the compelling truths that I've researched one stands out. Jackie Gleason's wife. She was quiet, never spoke out according to any account of her relationship to the great one. Very big grudgingly she told the story about Gleason going to see bodies through the au****es of his birthday and his dear friend Richard Nixon. Personally I wouldn't use this as proof of anything, but as far as my own understanding? I think this speaks volumes. This woman probably found speaking about this very unpleasant. She felt she had a responsibility to do so to honor her husband's memory. We'll never make the textbooks will it?

I'm giving you that example because you bringing up similar understanding of human psychology. The government wanted to make an example of Ali. The promoters probably didn't give to s****. The fans were the important variable here. As pep said, there was heightened protest against the war and the fans sided with Ali... I know this is a blanket statement but bear with me lol.

And that was the motivation and the promoters followed suit. So the fans and their lineals they're undisputed exercise their power and that's really all my point is. That and the fact that having Ali as a focal point is kind of a nice touch. Would this have worked as well if buster Mathis had gone to prison for the same offense? Probably not and buster wasn't bad!

[billeau2]

It's because he didn't fight a proper heavyweight campaign. The fact you have to pinpoint a single fight as evidence of his historical standing tells its own story. We don't need to do that with Lennox Lewis.

Lewis was a gift... He made it so easy for people to understand what a champion does because he made a point of trying to fight those who were deemed the most credible. You never even need to look at a chart and the only thing that ever gets bandied around that way this one him and Rid**** bowe had that dust up involving putting the belt in a dustbin lol.

[billeau2]

Let me reword, realign, and adjust:


One of you older guys, it has to be one of you and not me because of your actual connection to the era, needs to tell this story including details most fans take for granted when speaking to other fans. Trust me when I say if I didn't know Ali well he's super easy to look up because he's just barely older than yesterday. I do not think it should come from a younger poster .... You know you're in history section when a man in his 30ths is a younger member . I want a dude who used or still does overuse the word man, man, and I don't think I really need to even qualify why. It's the most obvious thing in the world; connection.

Who was president? I need to google that to keep me straight, I don't remember offhand because it's historical trivia to me not part of my lifetime. Dig? I think LBJ but I'm really going to google it to be sure.

I don't mean just verbiage, I don't mean just mannerism, or knowledge, just everything, yes, all of it. Youse are closer to the era if not from it.



I understand Ali was stripped because he dodged the draft. Like as in I understand those words just fine, but what TF actually happened? LBJ told the NYSAC? I don't understand the exact mechanisms that actually forces Ali to be stripped or who TF benefitted. Why would the WBA strip Ali for some American crime?



The title says The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing ... Not only do I think any one of youse could include far more details, but I think if you think about it you want to. It's a good topic.

Ali did not go to jail because he dodged the draft. He went to jail because he made a protest out of the act of refusing to go to war. He famously made the statement that resonates with this generation you speak of: "I ain't got nothing against no viet Cong." He spoke for a generation of black men who were once again being used as cannon fodder.

Every g hetto was a recruiting station and you would see the bodies coming back. And Ali not content just to be given a cushy assignment and allowed to box made the point. And I believe it was Nixon who was instrumental in finally having to stop the war. I only remember being on my mother's back hearing in cat calls as she went to protests with me on her back. In her case, even though I was too young she wanted to support other mothers who had children who were draft age.

So I hope that helps. It's true though. It's hard to understand how great Ali was. He would say ****** things and smile. People who were very intelligent and well educated like my parents never doubted the intelligence and goodness of Ali. And unlike today, saying a few silly things or regrettable things didn't mean much to anybody. Provided you did the right thing.

[Marchegiano]

Ali did not go to jail because he dodged the draft. He went to jail because he made a protest out of the act of refusing to go to war. He famously made the statement that resonates with this generation you speak of: "I ain't got nothing against no viet Cong." He spoke for a generation of black men who were once again being used as cannon fodder.

Every g hetto was a recruiting station and you would see the bodies coming back. And Ali not content just to be given a cushy assignment and allowed to box made the point. And I believe it was Nixon who was instrumental in finally having to stop the war. I only remember being on my mother's back hearing in cat calls as she went to protests with me on her back. In her case, even though I was too young she wanted to support other mothers who had children who were draft age.

So I hope that helps. It's true though. It's hard to understand how great Ali was. He would say ****** things and smile. People who were very intelligent and well educated like my parents never doubted the intelligence and goodness of Ali. And unlike today, saying a few silly things or regrettable things didn't mean much to anybody. Provided you did the right thing.

His story is so covered, the first time I ever actually ran across it was in a comic book! That sort of media is the bulk of Ali info for most of my life. Then you see his fights on YT, well at least I got to, before the copyright lawyer got on YT. Anyway the point is, I'm probably not alone in saying I know the mythological, for lack of a better term, Ali well. He's become an American hero, or at least icon. Then I just went through his career best I could and was like, yup, get it, fantastic skill set and stood up one man against a nation. That's not hard to get.



But a purely boxing perspective is hard to come by,at least conversationally. Which I believe has proven itself as its own medium. It's fine to say you don't know something, if that is the case, but I have never known you to be withholding or shy to answer with a look it up.

So, i want to revisit "the mechanism that actually strips Ali":


As far as I know, boxing does not strip world champions for breaking the law. It would be interesting to bring Mike Tyson because he's very much in the same boat. I never did look into his crimes. But is seems like boxing actually just cares about defense and schedule.

In Jack Johnson's case, well, the only bodies that spoke to JJ were Euro and had no real reason to back the American law or care about him breaking it.

Can you speak to that? Was it Ali broke the law and struggled to keep up with being champion during the time when he was viewed as a criminal in the US? Was it the NBA/NYSAC being order by judges? How exactly does Ali breaking American law lead to him being stripped?

Who promoted the next champions? I do mean who were their promoters.