Greb draws the colorline

[Marchegiano]

i cant see any case to answer here.

Maybe you're right. Got no likes here, only criticism.

No responses on the other forum either.

Just one like.

[JAB5239]

Found this on boxrec

"In December 1919 in Syracuse New York Greb had been scheduled to fight light heavyweight Clay Turner. The day before the fight Greb was told that Turner had injured his knee and was being replaced with heavyweight Bartley Madden. Greb was not happy about the situation but decided to go through with it because Jack Kearns had been floating the idea of having Dempsey defend against Madden. Beating Madden while he was being talked of as a potential Dempsey opponent would be good press for Greb's quest to get a fight with Dempsey. Just before the fight Greb was notified that Madden hadnt arrived in Syracuse and that instead Greb would be facing Panama Joe Gans. 1919 had seen the worst wave of racial violence in years. The race riots across the United States were so bad that it was called the "Red Summer". During this time Greb had promised his wife he wouldnt fight an African American fighter. This combined with the numerous switches in opponent prompted Greb to pull out of the match. Some have tried to paint this as Greb being afraid of Gans or ducking him but Gans was largely unknown at the time. His only fight of note had been an 8 round fight with Jeff Smith (who Greb had beaten numerous times) the outcome of which was disputed. Greb would prove that it wasnt race or fear that prompted him to avoid Gans two years later when he fought Gans' stablemate Kid Norfolk who was 30 pounds heavier than Gans and more highly regarded. Incidentally, a year earlier a very similar situation took place in Ohio where Greb was scheduled to face an opponent and three times the opponent was changed right up to the last minute of the fight. Finally Greb threw up his hands and walked away. He had little patience for such situations to begin with regardless of the racial climate of 1919."

"Greb wasnt notified that his opponent was switched for the second time until Gans was already in the ring. He and his manager went to the ring, dressed in street clothes, where his manager notified the audience that he would not be fighting. The crowd got angry, booed him, called him yellow, etc. He tried to speak to the crowd to explain the situation but it did no good. At one point, according to one paper, he used the n word to which Gans took exception and Greb apologized. The crowd was angry that they werent getting a main event (really no fault of Greb's) and eventually stormed out. Greb, later that evening, explained to the press and promoters the promise he had made to his wife. This seems to be the real sticking point because Greb offered to fight any other white fighter regardless of weight but none could be found and he showed both before 1919 and after that he was willing to face African American fighters who were both more highly regarded than Gans and bigger. Nevermind the fact that he fought and defeated men who had beaten Gans both before and after this incident. Gans only beat two fighters who defeated Greb: 1. Joe Borrell, seven years after Borrell had beaten Greb. By the time Gans got to him Borrell was shot to pieces. 2. Tiger Flowers, who was green at that point. Flowers lost twice to Gans in 1921 before Flowers had 25 fights under his belt. In 1923 when he was more seasoned Flowers dominated Gans. A year after dominating Gans Flowers, in his prime, lost to Greb in Ohio when Greb was already on the downside of his career. I see no real reason to hold it against Greb. It only looks odd in the context of a career spent fighting everyone at every weight. One can make something of his use of the n word but Greb wasnt a racist. He was a great fan and supporter of Harry Wills, gave Flowers all the credit in the world in 1924 after beating him, was good friends with Kid Crutchfield who he helped get a job at city hall and who he kept a photo of in his scrapbook. Unfortunately that word was just more used and more accepted at the time and he was likely trying to play to the crowd and misjudged his audience. Not that that makes its use forgivable but just trying to give it some context"

[Bronson66]

Found this on boxrec

"In December 1919 in Syracuse New York Greb had been scheduled to fight light heavyweight Clay Turner. The day before the fight Greb was told that Turner had injured his knee and was being replaced with heavyweight Bartley Madden. Greb was not happy about the situation but decided to go through with it because Jack Kearns had been floating the idea of having Dempsey defend against Madden. Beating Madden while he was being talked of as a potential Dempsey opponent would be good press for Greb's quest to get a fight with Dempsey. Just before the fight Greb was notified that Madden hadnt arrived in Syracuse and that instead Greb would be facing Panama Joe Gans. 1919 had seen the worst wave of racial violence in years. The race riots across the United States were so bad that it was called the "Red Summer". During this time Greb had promised his wife he wouldnt fight an African American fighter. This combined with the numerous switches in opponent prompted Greb to pull out of the match. Some have tried to paint this as Greb being afraid of Gans or ducking him but Gans was largely unknown at the time. His only fight of note had been an 8 round fight with Jeff Smith (who Greb had beaten numerous times) the outcome of which was disputed. Greb would prove that it wasnt race or fear that prompted him to avoid Gans two years later when he fought Gans' stablemate Kid Norfolk who was 30 pounds heavier than Gans and more highly regarded. Incidentally, a year earlier a very similar situation took place in Ohio where Greb was scheduled to face an opponent and three times the opponent was changed right up to the last minute of the fight. Finally Greb threw up his hands and walked away. He had little patience for such situations to begin with regardless of the racial climate of 1919."

"Greb wasnt notified that his opponent was switched for the second time until Gans was already in the ring. He and his manager went to the ring, dressed in street clothes, where his manager notified the audience that he would not be fighting. The crowd got angry, booed him, called him yellow, etc. He tried to speak to the crowd to explain the situation but it did no good. At one point, according to one paper, he used the n word to which Gans took exception and Greb apologized. The crowd was angry that they werent getting a main event (really no fault of Greb's) and eventually stormed out. Greb, later that evening, explained to the press and promoters the promise he had made to his wife. This seems to be the real sticking point because Greb offered to fight any other white fighter regardless of weight but none could be found and he showed both before 1919 and after that he was willing to face African American fighters who were both more highly regarded than Gans and bigger. Nevermind the fact that he fought and defeated men who had beaten Gans both before and after this incident. Gans only beat two fighters who defeated Greb: 1. Joe Borrell, seven years after Borrell had beaten Greb. By the time Gans got to him Borrell was shot to pieces. 2. Tiger Flowers, who was green at that point. Flowers lost twice to Gans in 1921 before Flowers had 25 fights under his belt. In 1923 when he was more seasoned Flowers dominated Gans. A year after dominating Gans Flowers, in his prime, lost to Greb in Ohio when Greb was already on the downside of his career. I see no real reason to hold it against Greb. It only looks odd in the context of a career spent fighting everyone at every weight. One can make something of his use of the n word but Greb wasnt a racist. He was a great fan and supporter of Harry Wills, gave Flowers all the credit in the world in 1924 after beating him, was good friends with Kid Crutchfield who he helped get a job at city hall and who he kept a photo of in his scrapbook. Unfortunately that word was just more used and more accepted at the time and he was likely trying to play to the crowd and misjudged his audience. Not that that makes its use forgivable but just trying to give it some context"

Great find Jab!

[Dr Z]

Are we taking Panama Joe Gans? If so there is no colorline to discuss, Greb had fought many colored fighter already. If were saying he ducked....I don't see that either. Was there a time Gans eas seen as greater than the men Greb was fighting?

Greb fought at least six black fighters.

[Marchegiano]

Cute.

So far we've done a heap of crying and pounded on Boxrec to find absolutely nothing that says Harry didn't draw the colorline.

What y'all do have is another researcher making a grasp at rationalizing why he refused to fight Panama without accepting the reason given by Greb. Source? Oh just Boxrec, which I guess is a viable source these days. . But that's a great find. While my ability to speak to their sparing gets ignored. Hmmm. Seems like I gave you a deeper context than the anon jabroni on boxrec ... because ... ya know ... Harry did fight late replacements. But let's not put a stop to mental gymnastics yet.




What you don't have is anything the refutes the idea Greb was not above drawing the colorline when it benefitted him.




You found some supporting evidence written by a jabroni who didn't bother to qualify a late replacement being more reasonable for the record of Harry Greb ... As in my only beef with Boxrec's account and where we disagree is in the rationalization of the excuse not the account of what happened.​

[JAB5239]

Cute.

So far we've done a heap of crying and pounded on Boxrec to find absolutely nothing that says Harry didn't draw the colorline.

What y'all do have is another researcher making a grasp at rationalizing why he refused to fight Panama without accepting the reason given by Greb. Source? Oh just Boxrec, which I guess is a viable source these days. . But that's a great find. While my ability to speak to their sparing gets ignored. Hmmm. Seems like I gave you a deeper context than the anon jabroni on boxrec ... because ... ya know ... Harry did fight late replacements. But let's not put a stop to mental gymnastics yet.




What you don't have is anything the refutes the idea Greb was not above drawing the colorline when it benefitted him.




You found some supporting evidence written by a jabroni who didn't bother to qualify a late replacement being more reasonable for the record of Harry Greb ... As in my only beef with Boxrec's account and where we disagree is in the rationalization of the excuse not the account of what happened.â

Sure, nothing but the fact there wasn't one replacement, but 2 replacements and the last without any notification until he got to the ring. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but you're not proving Greb drew the color line that's for sure. He fought colored fighter before he was married, while he was married and after his wife passed away. You posted this same thread in 2020. I didn't work then either.

[JAB5239]

Gans was 20 years older than Greb.

Different Gans. Panama Joe Gans was only 2 years older than Greb. But there is a connection. Greb beat Jack Blackburn (Joe Louis trainer) who was a standout fighter in his own time and fought the original Joe Gans 3 times, winning one of them.

[Mr Mitts]

Different Gans. Panama Joe Gans was only 2 years older than Greb. But there is a connection. Greb beat Jack Blackburn (Joe Louis trainer) who was a standout fighter in his own time and fought the original Joe Gans 3 times, winning one of them.

I was going to correct that but you beat me to it.

[JAB5239]

I was going to correct that but you beat me to it.

All good my friend!

[JAB5239]

From the book "The sundowners"

Leo Flynn had signed Panama Joe for a ten round preliminary bout against Al Rogers, an upstate, white middleweight at Syracuse, New York in early December 1919. The main event that night was supposed to have been Harry Greb and Clay Turner. When Flynn and Gans reached Syracuse they learned that Al Rogers had ducked out of his bout with Joe. Citing that he did not wish to fight a black man in front of his home crowd, Rogers, simply begged out. Promoter Joe Dunfee attempted to bring in a late substitute but could find no takers. To add to his problems, the day before the event, Clay Tumer wired from New York City that he had injured his leg and could not meet Greb. The wily Dunfee approached Flynn with the idea that Gans and Greb could draw a similar, if not larger crowd than Greb-Turner. Leo, after asking for more money, agreed. It is unclear as to whether or not Greb knew of the substitution, but when he entered the Arena Athletic Club ring and saw, the long, dark Panama Joe Gans standing across from him, he was not pleased. Harry refused to fight and drew the ire of the crowd when he waved them off as they razzed him. Reddy Mason, Greb's manager, addressed the crowd and attempted to explain the particulars of the situation, but was shouted down quickly. The Synacnur Herald reported that Reddy's speech basically boiled down to the fact that "He and Greb drew the color line". The crowd settled down when Greb took over, pleading his case to the crowd. However, when he used the word "******" in reference to Gans, the crowd roared its disapproval. Panama Joe himself took exception to Harry's slur and began to cross the ring towards his adversary. Greb held up his open hands and immediately apologized to Gans for the wrong doing. Harry then offered to box Young Fischer, who was in the crowd, but the latter was not interested. Harry and Mason then made a quick exit from the ring amid a showering of catcalls and debris. The Herald reported the next day, "Panama Joe Gans is not a champion, but champions and other near champions, such as Greb, would rather avoid such a "tough bird", and Gans scales lighter than Greb While Greb now draws the color line it was just a few years ago that he fought Willie Langford, the colored middleweight at Buffalo. But Greb has since got himself a reputation and can now "pick" his opponents."
The summer of 1919 was a long and scary one. The "Red Summer" saw the ugly face of racism in America boil over. It began in Chicago in July, when a young black boy went swimming at a Lake Michigan beach. Not a very good swimmer the boy found himself a size-able log to cling onto so that he could join his friends in deeper waters. Unable to control himself or the log the boy slowly drifted over towards a roped off section of the beach with a sign that read, "for Whites only". Panicked by his inability to paddle back towards his friends the boy began to flail wildly. From the beach a group of white men began to taunt the boy and then watched as the boy slipped into the water and drowned. A fight ensued between the white men and a group a black men who had come searching for the boy. When the Chicago police arrived on the scene they refused to arrest any of the white men who had witnessed the drowning but did arrest two of their black attackers. The incident set of rash of riots in Chicago. Whites formed gangs and invaded black neighborhoods, beating their inhabitants, looting stores and burning buildings. Some blacks retaliated by forming their own mobs and committing similar acts in white neighborhoods. By the time the National Guard had restored order, 15 whites had been killed and 153 injured and as many as 23 blacks had been killed and 178 injured. The incidents in Chicago began a chain reaction of similar incidents across the nation, forcing social experts to state that "there might be no solution in sight for America's racial differences". By the time order had been restored, there had been a total of 35 race