Life Expectancy—Heavyweight Champions

[Kid Cauliflower]

What I believe is that people then lived long lives too--as long as they could make it to adulthood. It was all the infant mortality that dragged their average down so far. Little doubt working conditions back then played a part too.

Good point about too much exercise and what kind of exercise it is. I don't imagine any of the world's strongest men will live long lives.

I noticed from the most recent contests that the competitors are smaller than hitherto. Not as many are growing gorilla bellies.Theories come and go. The new champion looks almost normal.

[Willie Pep 229]

The original compiler did a good job and was only right to leave out Johnson, Liston and Marciano. That is the proper way.

But also he viewed it from the wrong perspective and misunderstood the meaning of some numbers.

I now see from the other forum's comments as far as I read, that one poster did express a couple of ideas similar to mine without as much detail.

*************************************************

The first column of numbers gives the age at death, the next how far they exceeded the expected or fell short.

Lifespan

Sullivan 59........................+20

Corbett 66.........................+31

Fitzsimmons 54.................+15

Jefferies 77........................+39

Hart 55...............................+16

Burns 56............................+15

Willard 86...........................+47

Dempsey 86.......................+40

Tunney 81..........................+35

Schmeling 99.....................+49

Sharkey 91.........................+45

Carnera 61..........................+15

Baer 50.................................-2

Braddock 69..........................+19

Louis 67.................................+13

Charles 53..............................-1

Walcott 80...............................+26

Patterson 71............................+11

Johannsen 71......................... +13

Frazier 67.................................+5

Ali 74.........................................+13

Norton 70...................................+7


Of the Twenty-two dead champions listed, all but two lived a longer than expected life, measured from their birth date's life expectancy, for a grand total of 472 extra years lived by these mere twenty-two men, when the combined negative 3 years of Baer and Charles (2 and 1 respectively) are subtracted.

If this does not promote the value of exercise, I don't know what does!

It even seems to overcome the negativity of being pounded in the head and body for years, and then over compensates.

573 divided by 22, is 21.45 extra years of life per man when it is averaged for 22 men!

Rather astounding, I know. It floored me.

You really can't make this comparison using life expectancy. You have to use 'natural life expectancy.'

Jeffries at 77 is not +39 years past natural life expectancy.

This comparison is based on a life expectancy that means out to our early 30s. This includes still borns, accidents, epidemic diseases, ETC.

Just as you weeded out Liston and Marciano from your analysis, if we want to know if pugilism shortens life, these groups have to be weeded out of the life expectancy table.

Natural life expectancy has not changed that much.

[Kid Cauliflower]

You really can't make this comparison using life expectancy. You have to use 'natural life expectancy.'

Jeffries at 77 is not +39 years past natural life expectancy.

This comparison is based on a life expectancy that means out to our early 30s. This includes still borns, accidents, epidemic diseases, ETC.

Just as you weeded out Liston and Marciano from your analysis, if we want to know if pugilism shortens life, these groups have to be weeded out of the life expectancy table.

Natural life expectancy has not changed that much.

Thanks for agreeing with me. I already pointed out the problem of using statistics that include infant mortality. I already pointed out that people often lived long lives back then as long as they made it past childhood.

An interesting note is that since Sharkey the only H champ to live a truly long life was Walcott to 80. Any ideas on what meaning if any this might hold?

[Willie Pep 229]

Thanks for agreeing with me. I already pointed out the problem of using statistics that include infant mortality. I already pointed out that people often lived long lives back then as long as they made it past childhood.

An interesting note is that since Sharkey the only H champ to live a truly long life was Walcott to 80. Any ideas on what meaning if any this might hold?

Sorry, I missed that part of what you said.

Yes I have a very good idea what I think is happening. Getting punched in the head repeatedly damages the brain and it ends life sooner.

There is no doubt that this is happening. One autopsy after another has confirmed the damage done.

[Kid Cauliflower]

Sorry, I missed that part of what you said.

Yes I have a very good idea what I think is happening. Getting punched in the head repeatedly damages the brain and it ends life sooner.

There is no doubt that this is happening. One autopsy after another has confirmed the damage done.

Yes, but why are more recent champions dying sooner than the old ones who had more fights?

[Dr. Z]

I like statistics anyway and had already been reading the graphs when I ran into this:

https://www.*************.com/thread...mpions.364340/

And if you put it together with this things get more interesting:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ates-all-time/

I won't say more until you have time to view the documents in case no one is too interested. Some of you have probably already seen the first one, since it does come from a boxing forum.

Whoops! The first link does not work so I resorted cut and paste. He goes.

Sullivan died at 59.
Corbett died at 66.
Fitzsimmons died at 54.

Average: 59.6.

Then there was a pocket of overall longevity:
Jeffries was 77 going on 78 at his death.
Marvin Hart died at 55.
Tommy Burns was 73, nearly 74.
Jess Willard died at 86, nearly 87.
Jack Dempsey died at 87, nearly 88.
Gene Tunney died at 81.
Max Schmeling lived to 99.
Jack Sharkey lived to age 91.

Average for this group: 81.

Thereafter, it appears that most champions, on the whole, are living shorter lives:

Primo Carnera died at 61.
Max Baer died at 50.
Jim Braddock died at age 69.
Joe Louis died at 66, nearly 67.
Ezzard Charles died at 53, nearly 54, of ALS.
Joe Walcott, the lone anomaly, made it to age 80.
Floyd Patterson died at age 71, Alzheimer's and dementia pugilistica.
Ingemar Johansson died at age 76, Alzheimer’s, dementia, and pneumonia.
Joe Frazier - 67.

Average for this group: 65.8

Overall total average age of death of all former champions combined: 71 years.
Out of 20 champions, 2 died in their 90s, 4 died in their 80s, 4 died in their 70s, 5 died in their 60s, and 5 died in their 50s.

I removed Johnson, Marciano, and Liston from the equation because of their premature deaths from unnatural causes. Johnson was 68 at the time of his death and appears to have been in good health.


If you account for race, using only Louis through Frazier, then the average for black champions is 67.4. Average for white champions is 72.

Ali is currently 69. Norton is 68. If history holds true, on average, plus the recent trend, I’d say Ali doesn’t have a whole lot of time left.

Just watch what all those wars do to Holmes, Holyfield, and Bowe’s life spans. I’m curious to see how long Foreman and Tyson live. They usually administered beatings, which might save them in one respect, but Foreman fought and got hit for a lot of years, late in life, and Tyson took a few beatings too, plus the drug abuse.

We have to factor today's medical treatment better than it was 50 years ago. We must also factor in who smoked and drank as the two variables subtract 5 - 10 years of longevity. Finally we must consider race in the charts The average black man lives about 70 years in the USA, the average white men lives to about 76


IMO, boxing past your prime and taking beatings shorten life spans. So does obesity. If you make it past 73, you should live a long way as long as you don't smoke and drink College edcated people live longer as well. Lot of factors.

[billeau2]

Sorry, I missed that part of what you said.

Yes I have a very good idea what I think is happening. Getting punched in the head repeatedly damages the brain and it ends life sooner.

There is no doubt that this is happening. One autopsy after another has confirmed the damage done.

Yet we are finding more and more that we have opened up a Pandora's Box. What about Football American? Where trauma is li b erally spread out to include virtually every part of the body. Even Soccer causes brain problems because of headers... What is the message here? Ethically, Ontically? Do I want to live a life of no danger, nor glory and life to 105? Or do I want to take the biological determinism stoically, and suffer considerably with age? How much can we make the world a safe place? And when do we make life so safe that it undermines the sacrifices that make Altruism, self sacrifice, and going for that which is dangerous and worthy, a thing of the past?

I can only use my experience as a guide. Alas, I would not want to live in such a bubble. Ive had concussions, fighting injuries included... I have lots of chronic damage and would not trade any of it back for comfort. That is just me.

[billeau2]

We have to factor today's medical treatment better than it was 50 years ago. We must also factor in who smoked and drank as the two variables subtract 5 - 10 years of longevity. Finally we must consider race in the charts The average black man lives about 70 years in the USA, the average white men lives to about 76


IMO, boxing past your prime and taking beatings shorten life spans. So does obesity. If you make it past 73, you should live a long way as long as you don't smoke and drink College edcated people live longer as well. Lot of factors.

Its funny... When I was a kid, heavy smokers all seemed to die the same way... One day they went into the kitchen, the living room, etc and collapsed. Easy. Something to be said for it actually... No long hospital stays, etc... Every family in NYC had a bar, and most people smoked. Fewer people were obese, people were active and usually died around 70 or so... I personally do not even know if I want to live past 70 lol.

[Willie Pep 229]

Yet we are finding more and more that we have opened up a Pandora's Box. What about Football American? Where trauma is li b erally spread out to include virtually every part of the body. Even Soccer causes brain problems because of headers... What is the message here? Ethically, Ontically? Do I want to live a life of no danger, nor glory and life to 105? Or do I want to take the biological determinism stoically, and suffer considerably with age? How much can we make the world a safe place? And when do we make life so safe that it undermines the sacrifices that make Altruism, self sacrifice, and going for that which is dangerous and worthy, a thing of the past?

I can only use my experience as a guide. Alas, I would not want to live in such a bubble. Ive had concussions, fighting injuries included... I have lots of chronic damage and would not trade any of it back for comfort. That is just me.

Yes!

In regards to football. They only moved to plastic helmets in the 1950s. Now a generation later they are finally seeing the results, e.g. CTE

There is an irony here. Boxing added gloves to protect the hands only to find that gloves (and tape) turned the hand into a dangerous weapon.

Football who added the plastic helmet and then plastic face guards to protect the head has made the head a dangerous weapon.

Want to stop CTE in football. Easy, go back to leather helmets with no face masks.

Watch head-head contact disappear without needing a penalty. Proper blocking and tackling will replace "hitting."

Look at rugby.

We can still have the excitement and opportunity for personal bests, and the growth in character sport brings, but we can also not make it more dangerous.

[JAB5239]

Yet we are finding more and more that we have opened up a Pandora's Box. What about Football American? Where trauma is li b erally spread out to include virtually every part of the body. Even Soccer causes brain problems because of headers... What is the message here? Ethically, Ontically? Do I want to live a life of no danger, nor glory and life to 105? Or do I want to take the biological determinism stoically, and suffer considerably with age? How much can we make the world a safe place? And when do we make life so safe that it undermines the sacrifices that make Altruism, self sacrifice, and going for that which is dangerous and worthy, a thing of the past?

I can only use my experience as a guide. Alas, I would not want to live in such a bubble. Ive had concussions, fighting injuries included... I have lots of chronic damage and would not trade any of it back for comfort. That is just me.

I'd rather die young having done the things I wanted rather than live a long life with regrets. I'm two weeks into a 6 week fight camp while hoping to be matched to fight September 14th. People ask why? Because I still can and want to test myself. They say you could get hurt. Whether I fight or not I can get hurt. I've probably shortened my life more outside of martial arts than in it, and it brings me joy and keeps me young at heart. So I feel ya. Your post was perfect!