Holmes vs Norton II

[JAB5239]

Right, especially since Larry was so much like Ali, who Norton gave fits.

I still lean towards Holmes, though,

I think Holmes like a lot of fighters wanted to imitate Ali, but they weren't he same. Holmes controlled fights with a fast, hard accurate jab. Ali with speed. He may have wanted to emulate Ali,but his style was different, his skill set. Take away the arm Injury and I think it's an easier fight for him. No knock on Norton who pro Ed he could adapt to a more fluid style, I just think Kenny's best days were behind him.

[billeau2]

Right, especially since Larry was so much like Ali, who Norton gave fits.

I still lean towards Holmes, though,

The "Devil" is often in the details when he is not posting here lol... I was going to say Holmes imitate Ali, but a lot more can be explained if we look at Liston and his relationship to Foreman and compare it to Ali and his relationship to Holmes. So regarding my pun: Liston and Foreman were big aggressive punchers, and one is tempted to call them similar. In fact? Liston was devistating off the line, (think a large Pacman), and did not cut the ring (never needed to frankly). Foreman, cut the ring, and used his reach to control opponents, often grappling, while Liston used his reach in his jab (again it was all he needed to do). One could be forgiven for thinking these two fighters "similar" when in fact, levels to the game... on one level they are and when we really look, not at all. Liston was a technician, he never really needed to force his aggression and had devistating combos, while Foreman was a bull, he overwhelmed his opponent with his strength and sledge hammer punches.

Ali and Holmes, same thing! On the surface yes... But a closer look? Holmes IMO had the best lateral movement of any heavyweight champ. It made him hard to hit and allowed him to square up maximizing his jab. Ali used head movement and often (like JOnes) moved straight back. He moved in a manner only he could get away with. Holme's jab was a fast stinging shot that could be used as his major offensive weapon because he could throw it over and over in the same series. Ali's jab was an evolving technique, it could be a conventional fast shot, a feeler, or even a short shot, like a lead. Yet both guys could beat you with only a jab.

Holmes was technically an excellent fighter, while Ali did things Holmes could not do with his footwork and jab. While lateral movements helped Holmes, Ali was helped by his feet and a different kind of movement where he went back to just evade punches. Bats had a great GIF of Ali doing this!!

[QueensburyRules]

I think Larry wins even more decisively in a rematch. Whatever Norton had left he used it up with Larry in their fight. He was 35 and wasn't going to have any new tricks. I think Larry stops him in late rounds.

- - Which is the reason tubby Lar who was still skinny then turned down the wildly lucrative Norton rematch to fight a series muffins for peanuts.

[The D3vil]

The "Devil" is often in the details when he is not posting here lol... I was going to say Holmes imitate Ali, but a lot more can be explained if we look at Liston and his relationship to Foreman and compare it to Ali and his relationship to Holmes. So regarding my pun: Liston and Foreman were big aggressive punchers, and one is tempted to call them similar. In fact? Liston was devistating off the line, (think a large Pacman), and did not cut the ring (never needed to frankly). Foreman, cut the ring, and used his reach to control opponents, often grappling, while Liston used his reach in his jab (again it was all he needed to do). One could be forgiven for thinking these two fighters "similar" when in fact, levels to the game... on one level they are and when we really look, not at all. Liston was a technician, he never really needed to force his aggression and had devistating combos, while Foreman was a bull, he overwhelmed his opponent with his strength and sledge hammer punches.

Ali and Holmes, same thing! On the surface yes... But a closer look? Holmes IMO had the best lateral movement of any heavyweight champ. It made him hard to hit and allowed him to square up maximizing his jab. Ali used head movement and often (like JOnes) moved straight back. He moved in a manner only he could get away with. Holme's jab was a fast stinging shot that could be used as his major offensive weapon because he could throw it over and over in the same series. Ali's jab was an evolving technique, it could be a conventional fast shot, a feeler, or even a short shot, like a lead. Yet both guys could beat you with only a jab.

Holmes was technically an excellent fighter, while Ali did things Holmes could not do with his footwork and jab. While lateral movements helped Holmes, Ali was helped by his feet and a different kind of movement where he went back to just evade punches. Bats had a great GIF of Ali doing this!!

Right,

Ali the better athlete, Holmes way more technically sound.

Good break down.

[Willie Pep 229]

Why no rematch!

I think it worked out as such . . .

1978

In spring Holmes beat Shavers UD in an eliminator and then in summer Norton for the title (SD.)

Both fighters then took an easy fight that autumn. Holmes took (what may have been a mandatory) fight with the South American Evangelista. Norton was the preliminary fight and got by Randy Stephens easily.

There could have been a rematch right here but the powers to be decided Norton had to prove himself and was matched with Shavers. Money grab I suspect.

IMO this is the moment you can accuse Holmes of not offering Norton a rematch. But was the WBC in the way?

1979

In Spring Holmes took on the undefeated Ozzie Ocasio (another Latino fighter)* and in the preliminary Norton got spanked by Shavers.

This first round loss took Norton out of the picture.

That summer Holmes then took on Mike Weaver.

While Norton tried to redeem himself but drew with Scott DeLoux.

No rematch; rematch was dead.

That autumn Shavers got the rematch and title shot he earned.

* This covers both of the * above. --- It looks like the WBC was cashing in on Holmes by pushing/forcing fights with Latino fighters and were probably getting a nice kickback.

[drmbowen]

The '76 version of Norton that got robbed against Ali was his peak v. the Ali I fight in '73

[drmbowen]

Willie Pep 229 calls it exactly right

[drmbowen]

Billeau2 Norton was a strong, awkward, well-conditioned athletic phenom whose boxing success otherwise entirely depended on the other guy. As long as the other guy was not a ****er and didn't back him up, Kenny was golden. If he did have to back up and deal with a ****er, it was always a disaster.

[Bronson66]

I think Holmes like a lot of fighters wanted to imitate Ali, but they weren't he same. Holmes controlled fights with a fast, hard accurate jab. Ali with speed. He may have wanted to emulate Ali,but his style was different, his skill set. Take away the arm Injury and I think it's an easier fight for him. No knock on Norton who pro Ed he could adapt to a more fluid style, I just think Kenny's best days were behind him.

Norton said he no longer sacrificed,if he wanted to party he did.The Holmes fight was his last hurrah,imo.

[JAB5239]

Norton said he no longer sacrificed,if he wanted to party he did.The Holmes fight was his last hurrah,imo.

Queenie is a bit slow on the uptake. That and the all day drinking do him no favors.