What Previous Hvy Champs Could Whoop Usyk?

[Bronson66]

How did Toney ever land in this discussion as a great or even good heavyweight?

Search me! lol

[Bronson66]

How did Toney ever land in this discussion as a great or even good heavyweight?

It can only have come from Apples post.

"for example, Oliver Mcall, Rahman, James Toney, these guys beat Usyk. At best he�s competitive."

[Willie Pep 229]

Pre-Liston, how many of the heavyweight greats do you think would whoop Usyk's a**?

So the further back in time we go, the more the "competitive desire of the average boxer in the higher ranks increases". Do we have something other than wishfull thinking to support this notion? Or is it just another unverifiable claim of yours... you know, like the idea that modern boxers have thinner sculls than the oldtimers!?

So the covid era has turned today's boxers into sissies?

Toney would beat Usyk. Really??

Not a boxing argument, but we could argue that we are softer men than our grandfathers.

If we are going to constantly bemoan that we are not the nation we once were, than the leap to diminished prize fighting isn't necessarily off the table.

Of course there is never any proof, never can be, but conjecture via association isn't merely 'wishful thinking' either, it's more.

You guys have me wondering now what I think.

You two have traded punches on this point several times and gotten in my head.

It is surely impossible to answer, but how do we even ask the question?

Would a fighter today, quit sooner, because of pain, than a fighter in 1934?

Nah! See, that question doesn't work. Too many variables created by individual character. And trying to prove it by aggregation is only going to be shaped by cognitive bias anyway.

I got nothing! But I don't see the issue as settled. There is a comparison to make. I just don't know how to make it, but it shouldn't merely be dismissed either.

My gut says they (the past) would see our culture as one that whines too often; as soft.

Does that translate into the ring? Are they even seeing us correctly?

[Bronson66]

Not a boxing argument, but we could argue that we are softer men than our grandfathers.

If we are going to constantly bemoan that we are not the nation we once were, than the leap to diminished prize fighting isn't necessarily off the table.

Of course there is never any proof, never can be, but conjecture via association isn't merely 'wishful thinking' either, it's more.

You guys have me wondering now what I think.

You two have traded punches on this point several times and gotten in my head.

It is surely impossible to answer, but how do we even ask the question?

Would a fighter today, quit sooner, because of pain, than a fighter in 1934?

Nah! See, that question doesn't work. Too many variables created by individual character. And trying to prove it by aggregation is only going to be shaped by cognitive bias anyway.

I got nothing! But I don't see the issue as settled. There is a comparison to make. I just don't know how to make it, but it shouldn't merely be dismissed either.

My gut says they (the past) would see our culture as one that whines too often; as soft.

Does that translate into the ring? Are they even seeing us correctly?

Some would some wouldn't, no era has a monopoly on courage.

[Willie Pep 229]

Some would some wouldn't, no era has a monopoly on courage.

As the devil's advocate, then would that not argue men are not moved by their tribe?

They say that men in combat walk into fire because they enter the plain of the sacred with their comrades and become more than an individual.

Certainly that is man's nature expressed to the extreme. But does a prevailing social temperament have no affect on the individual?

Will some eras have more courageous men, is the question.

I think the group always holds some sway over the individual and will expand or contract traits of individual character.

Yes, courage will always exist, but its appearance will be shaped by the group.

Just devil's advocate. I don't want to die on this hill.

[Bundana]

Regarding the question of "heart", or whatever you want to call the refusal to quit, when things aren't going your way - surely that is an individual trait, that has nothing to do with era!

A recent boxer that comes to mind is Chisora, who seems to be willing to fight on, no matter how much punishment he takes... until his body shuts down completely, or the ref stops the fight.

From back in the day, I think of someone like Don C***ell, who refused to quit against Marciano, despite being hit with everything, round after round, but the kitchen sink! I believe I once read, that before the fight started he told his trainer, that he would never speak to him again, if he stopped the fight. He clearly took pride in going out on his shield! Surely these type of fighters have been around in all eras - and not just in the old days.

[them_apples]

Pre-Liston, how many of the heavyweight greats do you think would whoop Usyk's a**?

So the further back in time we go, the more the "competitive desire of the average boxer in the higher ranks increases". Do we have something other than wishfull thinking to support this notion? Or is it just another unverifiable claim of yours... you know, like the idea that modern boxers have thinner sculls than the oldtimers!?

So the covid era has turned today's boxers into sissies?

Toney would beat Usyk. Really??

the Toney that beat Holyfield beats the dog**** out of Usyk. Yes. Easy fight. Usyk fights like an amateur with that high guard sockem boppem style. He looks ****** against Toney.

I say the Toney that fought Holy cause he was in better shape (for him) and actually came to prove something. Toney wouldn’t even train for some fights, many he struggled with because hes obese and gasses so bad.

but that version of Toney, the best version of him and HW beats Usyk easy. Nothing Usyk does would trouble Toney.

[them_apples]

Regarding the question of "heart", or whatever you want to call the refusal to quit, when things aren't going your way - surely that is an individual trait, that has nothing to do with era!

A recent boxer that comes to mind is Chisora, who seems to be willing to fight on, no matter how much punishment he takes... until his body shuts down completely, or the ref stops the fight.

From back in the day, I think of someone like Don C***ell, who refused to quit against Marciano, despite being hit with everything, round after round, but the kitchen sink! I believe I once read, that before the fight started he told his trainer, that he would never speak to him again, if he stopped the fight. He clearly took pride in going out on his shield! Surely these type of fighters have been around in all eras - and not just in the old days.

thats not what happened against ****ell.

Marciano was told it was an easy fight and just went to spark his ass with one punch. ****ell actually tried to win that fight and hit Rock with a good left. Like most of Marcianos fights, after that it went downhill fast. In fact immediately after ****ell hit Marciano, Marciano blasted him with a cross and went to work the next few rounds slaughtering him.

you are so desparately looking to degrade Marciano that you dig up a fight where Marciano damn near kills the guy, only it took him a few more rounds than expected.

what do we say of Fury then? He’s 6 ft 8 getting beat BAD by a cruiserweight. Usyk didn’t even box and move he literally walked him down. What do we say of Fury??? How could a man so much smaller than Fury physically overpower him so badly? Especially a fighter people call “great”.

Marciano winning by knockout is somehow an example of how bad Marciano is! Loll

[Bundana]

thats not what happened against ****ell.

Marciano was told it was an easy fight and just went to spark his ass with one punch. ****ell actually tried to win that fight and hit Rock with a good left. Like most of Marcianos fights, after that it went downhill fast. In fact immediately after ****ell hit Marciano, Marciano blasted him with a cross and went to work the next few rounds slaughtering him.

you are so desparately looking to degrade Marciano that you dig up a fight where Marciano damn near kills the guy, only it took him a few more rounds than expected.

what do we say of Fury then? He�s 6 ft 8 getting beat BAD by a cruiserweight. Usyk didn�t even box and move he literally walked him down. What do we say of Fury??? How could a man so much smaller than Fury physically overpower him so badly? Especially a fighter people call �great�.

Marciano winning by knockout is somehow an example of how bad Marciano is! Loll

I don't get it... how was my post an attempt to degrade Marciano? The only purpose of that post was to illustrate how incredibly brave ****ell was in that fight. How can you not see that?

As for Toney beating the dog**** out of the amateurish Usyk? Sure, why not... not even worth debating!

[Bronson66]

thats not what happened against ****ell.

Marciano was told it was an easy fight and just went to spark his ass with one punch. ****ell actually tried to win that fight and hit Rock with a good left. Like most of Marcianos fights, after that it went downhill fast. In fact immediately after ****ell hit Marciano, Marciano blasted him with a cross and went to work the next few rounds slaughtering him.

you are so desparately looking to degrade Marciano that you dig up a fight where Marciano damn near kills the guy, only it took him a few more rounds than expected.

what do we say of Fury then? He�s 6 ft 8 getting beat BAD by a cruiserweight. Usyk didn�t even box and move he literally walked him down. What do we say of Fury??? How could a man so much smaller than Fury physically overpower him so badly? Especially a fighter people call �great�.

Marciano winning by knockout is somehow an example of how bad Marciano is! Loll

That's exactly what happened.

****ell told his manager John Simpson,"whatever happens in there,don't you ****ing well stop it,if you do I'll never speak to you again."
Simpson was mad they had put them in a tiny16 ft ring,which was to Marciano's advantage.

" I hit him harder than I have ever hit anyone,my best punches didn't seem to affect him."Marciano.

Posting the facts isn't degrading Marciano,nor did Bundana intend to.
It was a gimmee defence , the only surprise was it took Marciano 9 rds to get rid of a man who had been stopped 7 times already,once by a162lbs middleweight who floored him 3 times ,and once by a light heavy who floored him 5 times before stopping him in4 rds.