Which boxer pioneered boxing techniques as we know them today

[billeau2]

I wouldn't claim Locche invented the rope a dope,I just gave him as an example of some one who utilised it on occasion.

It's highly probable some old timer from way back, or some obscure pugilist originated it.
As we haven't ever seen any footage of the real old timers or all the less celebrated journeymen, nobody could or should make definitive claims about such things.To do so smacks of overweening vanity imo.

This post is exactly what I am trying to articulate...

1. I might present a Hermeneutic statement with a set of points that define what Locche did as being the RAD (Rope a Dope). i could conceviably prove my point by Heuristically applying the criteria I set fourth. I could claim that according to those points, which could be proved, the conclusion reached is valid.

2. I could make a statement that we cannot assign an origination point to this technique. Just as you did above.

I understand your point about Locche.

3. I could simply state an opinion. In this case? I believe Ali did something fundamentally different in a meaningful way that makes it unique... Certainly not better, just a little different. But this is just an opinion, there really is no proof.

The thing is, depending on how we frame a conclusion, what we are looking for, things change considerably.

[billeau2]

It's cute you remember your sources I really don't understand how that does not confirm my point though. Oh you remember the convo, you remember you source, but do not remember what I told you to read. Like as if giving you a source is a waste of time. Hmm.

"When Rocky would get him momentarily pinned, he resorted to what Ali would later dub, "The rope-a-dope". " Sounds like someone before me related Roland and Rope-a-Dope. No reason for you to investigate that farther on your own, you can play semantics. Impressive He didn't say invented.


Some jabroni on the internet saying something similar to me isn't a source bud. It's evidence you should do more research though. I didn't pull it out of my ass. It's out there.



Does not know what Walcott's Sucka Punch is! Guess what *****, I shall source nothing and be 100% correct on this too. You being too ****ing lazy to do your own research means **** all. You being too ****ing lazy to have done decent research in the first place changes nothing.


A definition! We do LOVE semantics don't we?

Let me follow your lead there.

What is the definition of "Suzie-Q"? A song, a dance? How about the punch?

Let us use YOUR source:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Susy-Q

Susy-Q
noun
Su·sy-Q ˈsüzēˈkyü
: a dance step in which the hips and legs are swung sharply to one side while the shoulders and arms are bent forward and swung toward the opposite side with the clasped hands extended forward


Isn't that interesting? Doesn't say a damn thing about Marciano? Almost as if boxing lingo has a meaning beyond mainstream meaning. Hmmm. Room to play semantics galore.

Do I need to define Suzie-Q? Need a source for the definition? No, no I do not. Because it's super basic right? You know the 50s right? Ain't no missing something as basic as the Suzie-Q in the Marciano story. If you missed that you need more than a source for Suzie, you need a book for Rocky.



Jersey Joe Walcott's Sucka Punch has 0 to do with nasty dirty tactics and everything to do with his shoulders. One whose read Marciano should know all about the punch that dropped him. Should, even without having it pointed out to them, recognize the punch that dropped Rock is the same punch that set up for the Suzie. It is the Sucka.

Joe kept his feet at ortho and put his shoulders at southpaw. It's a preloaded punch fighting out of a mixed stance he incorporated into his shoulder work. AKA the punch that dropped Marciano, same punch Joe was going for when Marciano dropped Joe.


Sorry you'll have to read a book about Marciano instead of looking up words in a dictionary.



" Rocky Marciano’s encounter with Joe Walcott’s sucker punch showcased both the vulnerability and resilience of a champion. It’s a reminder that even the greatest fighters can be caught off guard, but true champions rise to the occasion. " - Pulled from my ass not a book. For reasons. Unexplainable reasons. Couldn't possibly be Ivich just missed something

So according to you, The fact that Ali was inspired by something Marciano did, gives it the force of an origination point... I don't see a problem with this. You laid out your criteria for the statement. One can agree, disagree, but the information is transparent.

[Ivich]

This post is exactly what I am trying to articulate...

1. I might present a Hermeneutic statement with a set of points that define what Locche did as being the RAD (Rope a Dope). i could conceviably prove my point by Heuristically applying the criteria I set fourth. I could claim that according to those points, which could be proved, the conclusion reached is valid.

2. I could make a statement that we cannot assign an origination point to this technique. Just as you did above.

I understand your point about Locche.

3. I could simply state an opinion. In this case? I believe Ali did something fundamentally different in a meaningful way that makes it unique... Certainly not better, just a little different. But this is just an opinion, there really is no proof.

The thing is, depending on how we frame a conclusion, what we are looking for, things change considerably.

I don't know what hermenuetic or heuristically mean.
Do you mean the interpretation of language,and the rule of thumb?

[BKM-]

What?

Tunney may have been a master of boxing but he was a disaster for the fight game.

Never caught on with the fans. Put the game to sleep and did everyone a favor when retired.

And was a boorish, impolite man.

A disaster for prize fighting but a big credit to the fight game.

[BKM-]

How was Tunney such a disaster? He was a Marine, he had good story telling ability and an interesting story to tell... Why don't you and Pep get a bunch of part time martial artists, have them wear a uniform that would give any gay pride attendent a woody, make a sport where the claim is there are no rules... bring in a family of professional fighters from a country like.... oh Brazil? to whip on the semi professional plumbers who go to the dojo part time and want to scrap.. Maybe if you guys do this you will get a real blood lust, a sanguinity guaranteed to create fan excitemen..... WAIT A MINUTE!!!!

I was indulging Wilie too much there yes. I'm a Tunney fan after all. But I just want to say it is tough for any fighter to follow up on heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey that's all.

[BKM-]

If expecting to be excited by a fight is the definition then I am a "casual fan." -- not sure I buy into your word choice but certainly I do not veiw the game in the same manner as you.

I am not much interested in watching a fighter display his boxing skills as mch as I want to see him display those skills in a fight.

Certainly that males you different and I suspect a 'better fan' than me, with your martial arts background and appreciation of skill, but I think you need to find a better choice of words than "casual fan" when demeaning my commitment to the fight game.

In regards to Tunney being boorish.

After the '26 loss Dempsey wrote an open letter to Tunney asking about the strange events that occurred in Dempsey's camp the morning of the fight (the susposed poisoning.) Tunney offered an open letter reply, a non-denial denial. Then Tunney used the opportunity to mock Dempsey's literacy.

His rudeness wasn't lost on fans who were willing to look pass his wonderful skills and judge the man as a man. Like I do. Must be a casual thing.

Well why would we care in 2024 if a fighter one century ago was considered "boring" and didn't live up to the national and international fame as the champ before him? Skills, resume, accomplishments and legacy are scrutinized more in the long run and in terms of that, Gene Tunney is like royalty.

[Willow The Wisp]

How was Tunney such a disaster? He was a Marine, he had good story telling ability and an interesting story to tell... Why don't you and Pep get a bunch of part time martial artists, have them wear a uniform that would give any gay pride attendent a woody, make a sport where the claim is there are no rules... bring in a family of professional fighters from a country like.... oh Brazil? to whip on the semi professional plumbers who go to the dojo part time and want to scrap.. Maybe if you guys do this you will get a real blood lust, a sanguinity guaranteed to create fan excitemen..... WAIT A MINUTE!!!!

MMA still has a considerable fanbase, but it's peaked. BKB is the thing now, missing only the speedos. Lol.

[Willow The Wisp]

True story about those speedos. I was still writing for the mags a bit and Black Belt had some issue come out with a cover photo of a guy tatooed up, spandex shorts, very intense look on the face... I kept the latest black belt where it belonged when it was secured, right near the toilet! Because the writing was by and large not so good!

My wife gives me this strange look, and shows me the ****zine. It never occured to me til she brought it up, how this cover photo looked. She was like "what ****zine is this Honey? are you being straight with me? pardon the pun.

Lol. Yup.