Which boxer pioneered boxing techniques as we know them today

[billeau2]

that is a very good point, Dempsey glorified the punch.

How important that is, is hard to say.

Take the jab. Johnson was using it consumately while most were still using the lead. The difference is in the details: a lead comes from an entirely different concept of hitting... Like a sweet potato and a yam... looking similar but being totally different tubors, the lead is a piston thrown straight to the chin, power gained from rocking the body forward. Extension happens in the legs, like a fencing thrust. A jab creates distance from the turning of the shoulder, and uses a centripedial turn to accent the strike. It is kind of a corkscrew punch thrown as one assumes a profile position with the shoulders... it creates distance.

The thing with the jab is, you can hit fast off the parry, like Johnson did when he caught shots on the gloves...

[billeau2]

Louis actually had one of the most educated stances in boxing. He is one of the only guys that can walk forward offering almost nothing to hit. When people think of defense they always want to see someone duck or slip punches. They should learn to count punches that are actually landing on a fighter.

Louis frequently found himself stalking fighters, even those bigger than him. The reason being, his stance. Blackburn was a genius - literally. The way Louis stands, given he keeps facing you from this angle (he pivots on his back foot to ensure this) offers you 0 openings to hit him, without needing to do anything at all. If that isn't good defense, I don't know what is. There is a reason Schmeling had to find a "special" opening to even catch Louis. He was considered very hard to hit. And even in this situation, I think it had to do a lot with Louis underestimating him.

Furthermore, he adopts this shuffling, feet close to ground footwork - but magically finds himself in and out of position where and when he needs to be. That's because he has FAST feet but he is hiding it because he is a brilliant fighter. This was all Blackburns work.

Even down to Louis weight distribution of strong thick legs and a lean upperbody would indicate agility. The one thing missing in fighters today is deception.

The first fallicy of "judging" anyone remember that the hand is quicker than the eye? Judges cannot see defensive subtlety. Never have been able to do so. Louis also was a master of shifting weight into his shots. Most punchers today either square up, or attack weight forwards. Louis had a balance point where he could transfer weight coming in. So if he caught you trying to hit his false centerline ( a well used concept by many fighters back in the day) he would slip, and simultaneously transfer weight and strike. He was never subject to the counter until he had one dead to hit.

[billeau2]

Who is credited with the overhand right?

There is no such thing. You have a cross. Watch fighters pre Dempsey. When they are warming up watch how they bring the arm up shoulder and above... The lead, by comparison was straight as an arrow. Lets look at physiology, something I love to teach to martial artists.

If I want to hit you with a cross... omit all measures to set it up... Purely talking about the punch landing... I cannot just shoot it straight there and back because it has no reach, I am exposed, and the power is stunted in the arm. So I can:

1. Step off line just before I throw the shot, giving me a new line to exploit and protect. I can also grab your chest area, shirt and turn you off line while I do this in self defense.

2. I can bring the punch upwards so it comes down at you from an angle where you have to block it, and where I have the shoulder now linked into the body (Kinematic chain) and I can variate the angle of the shot as I turn my upper body, responding to your position (specifically where you will be on impact).

This is all the info you need to understand who invented any punch... Nature did!

A cross is an inherently weak punch against a trained fighter. It has no range, no length and exposes the fighter.

NOTE: Apologies. I meant to say "If I want to hit you with a CROSS."

[Ivich]

- - Louis to taunting Ali, "I'd make you one of my Bums too."

Not.actually what he said.
" Back in my day they had what they called the Bum Of The Month Tour ", " you mean I"m a bum Joe?" " You woulda been on the tour."

[Ivich]

TBH I'm not willing to back up anything I said there. Figure it out or write it off as crazed ramblings, I do not actually give a ****. What I will say about it is it does not surprise me the man solely responsible for whatever understanding there is to be had of ancient boxing also did more detailed research in the eras you think you know about.

My last comment to you was you're too ****** to understand you made apples point for him. I'm just going to directly tell you, you're too ****** and too stubborn for me to waste my time on.

What you read there and know I am right about, cool. What you question, cool. I don't give a **** either way. I'm not going to post a source for you just for you to tell me exactly what I want to hear veiled in contrarian terms without any sense of irony or awareness. You mook prick.

You make definite statements but are unwilling to back them up after a polite request that you do so.
Instead you type personal insults.


You need professional help.

[billeau2]

Kinematic chain

damn dyslexia... thank you my friend!

[Ivich]

If you think I am wrong go figure out who first developed the crouch and then tell us about it

Oh,you want to continue?

I never said you were wrong.I asked for proof you were right!

I don't know who invented the crouch.
As to the rope a dope, the name that comes to my mind would be Niccolino Locche,but Lastarza's career preceeded his ,the

only problem is I can find no reference to Lastarza ever employing this strategy.In contrast Locche is known for using it.

Lamotta used to back onto the ropes and feign being in distress,to lure opponents in and then explode with a salvo of punches,but that is a different ball game.

I thought maybe I might learn something here but ,obviously that was a forlorn hope,because you have no evidence to back up your statements.

I asked you in which fights we could see Lastarza employing the rope a dope strategy? You did not respond which implies you have no examples to offer

You were asked to give proof Ryan is credited with inventing the crouch,you provided none.

Two simple questions, which because you could not answer them ,you resorted to that old hackneyed ruse,the faux indignation,the phoney temper tantrum,the, I don't care if you believe me or not BS.

For someone who continually proclaims how smart he is, how superior he is to the rest of us morons,your reaction to any kind of enquiry is totally over the top and off the wall!
It's the," I don't want to play anymore,I'm taking my ball and going home," syndrome.

If you make a statement the onus is on you to prove it.That isnt a challenge,it's universally understood good working practice.

You don't wish to comply fine, but then why continue sniping?

[Ivich]

When I write about the ancients does it seem untrue? When I write about **** you know, no issues. When I write about **** you know and drop a detail you didn't, now you want a source, but the problem is your ass isn't even going to read the source. Or the source will say something like "for financial backing" instead of "Sold for money" and you play some ****** semantics game.

It is quite possible your lack of finds are just your lack of finds. Or I just make up random **** about boxers I hardly ever speak to and sprinkle that into a post with **** you already knew was true and my motivation for this is ... I dunno ... you've yet to tell me. You're totally capable of a "implies you have no examples to offer" but seem to fall short of any logical motive.

Snipping? Because I don't like you Ivich. We don't get on. You are a prick. Want me to source Nat selling rankings to Tex still? The source for making **** up was already given to you. You didn't read it. Outside of the conversation we had about Panama Gans you act like that source doesn't exist. So you tell me how and why you are not just a waste of time and explain to me how teaching you what you refuse to retain or learn from is a better use of my time than calling you a ****** prick?

If I give you the source on this topic will you ask for the same exact ****ing source once the topic has changed? You have done. You do not read the source. you read the little bit that pertains to the argument you're engaged with. You're not a student. You are just an old prick. a cliche know-nothing know-it-all old prick with no interest in learning anything. If you wanted to learn you'd read the entire book not the ****ing bit that covers Gans whooping Greb exclusively. And when I say things from that book, you having that book too, should be all the ****ing source you need to know where I got the information from, you prick.






You already have it. I know you already have it. Read the **** you claim to want to read.

I have no idea whether what you write about the ancient is untrue or not,I have never researched them because I have no interest in them.

However I do have a deep interest in boxing from Sullivan;s time up until the present,and I will match my knowledge of that against yours any day of the week and twice on Sundays!

Self justifying gibberish to cover up the glaring fact that you have
NO SOURCE FOR YOUR STATEMENTS.
IFYOU HAD YOU WOULD RUSH TO GET THEM IN PRINT!

I ASSURE YOU I WILL READ YOUR SOURCES,AND IF THEY VINDICATE YOU, I WILL BE THE FIRST TO CONGRATULATE YOU ON NOT ONLY PRODUCING THEM BUT EDUCATING ME ON THEM!
NOW HERE IS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU TO SHOW YOUR SELF PROCLAIMED SUPERIORITY OVER THE REST OF US!

JUST PROVIDE A SOURCE THAT STATES RYAN INVENTED THE CROUCH.WHICH BY THE WAY I READ YESTERDAY SULLIVAN SOMETIMES EMPLOYED?
JUST POST A SINGLE VERIFIED REFERENCE TO LASTARZA USING THE ROPE A DOPE TACTIC?

IN SHORT IM CALLING YOUR BLUFF. SO **** OR GET OFF THE POT!


Now all the personal insults you sling at me from the safety of your PC do not impress me or any straight thinking poster,they just show you in your true light,and that is so blatantly self evident there is no need for me to describe it further!

OH ,AND YOUR MOTIVE IS SELF GLORIFICATION ,PLAIN OLD VANITY.

THE I AM THE MAN TO COME TO WHEN YOU WANT INFORMATION. I AM THE BOSS HERE SYNDROME!

[billeau2]

sorry guys I'm struggling with a ****ed up keyboard. You'll have to bear with me on the spelling and grammar until I replace it.

I would trade your keyboard for my brain... You can change a keyboard, My Dyslexia sometimes lol...

[billeau2]

It's cool, I rarely catch you making a mistake actually.

I make quite a few lol... Shoulder Roll and Megas30 among others are good at catching them. I always appreciate it. I decided some time ago that part of the joy I get out of posting is to respond with a conversational style, little editing. The stuff I write professionally I edit, like anyone has to do.