Let’s get this straight about the Ali-Marciano comp fight

[Dr. Z]

I see this thread turned into a Marciano vs. Dempsey thread.

Well, I must ask who did Dempsey ever beat that is close to Marciano in clearly. I say cleanly because I don't count Sharkey who was in the lead until he was low blowed and Ko'd when complaining to the referee.

Jack was Ko'd in one round by Flynn, beaten by a fat Meehan, and had controversy in some of his best wins over Willard and Fripo, going down more than once in Fripo in short rounds. Willard was 37 and had not fought in 3.5 years!

Jack beat light heavyweights Gibbons and Carpentier, both of whom were under 176 lbs.

And he ducked his #1 contender in Wills and Greb! And had to come back to Ko Brennan late. When he fought Tunney at age 31-32 he was badly beaten and would have been Ko'd if the match was not only 10 rounds!

While Rocky on the other hand fought the best out there. Black or white and ducked no one.



So who do I pick?

I favor Dempsey very early rounds 1 -4 , and Marciano in rounds 5-15. Looking at Dempsey he only has one clean KO past round six. Hmmmmm.... Jack had a small gas tank. If forced to choose I pick Rocky via KO in the mid to late rounds.

[BKM-]

I see this thread turned into a Marciano vs. Dempsey thread.

Well, I must ask who did Dempsey ever beat that is close to Marciano in clearly. I say cleanly because I don't count Sharkey who was in the lead until he was low blowed and Ko'd when complaining to the referee.

Jack was Ko'd in one round by Flynn, beaten by a fat Meehan, and had controversy in some of his best wins over Willard and Fripo, going down more than once in Fripo in short rounds. Willard was 37 and had not fought in 3.5 years!

Jack beat light heavyweights Gibbons and Carpentier, both of whom were under 176 lbs.

And he ducked his #1 contender in Wills and Greb! And had to come back to Ko Brennan late. When he fought Tunney at age 31-32 he was badly beaten and would have been Ko'd if the match was not only 10 rounds!

While Rocky on the other hand fought the best out there. Black or white and ducked no one.



So who do I pick?

I favor Dempsey very early rounds 1 -4 , and Marciano in rounds 5-15. Looking at Dempsey he only has one clean KO past round six. Hmmmmm.... Jack had a small gas tank. If forced to choose I pick Rocky via KO in the mid to late rounds.

I agree. I think it's 50/50 and would go the way you described the two scenarios. Dempsey had such a killer instinct himself, he could definitely get the early KO because unlike Walcott and Moore who hurt and dropped him early, Dempsey would not allow him to recover and would pounce on him non-stop.

[Ivich]

- - I realize boxing history ain't your think, but the only cognoscenti of Rocky's day ranking historical fighters was Nat Fleischer, and he didn't rank fighters until they retired.

When Rocky retired, Nat ranked him highly...end of...yeah...

"When Rocky retired, Nat ranked him highly."
Up until Fleischer died in1972 there had been 24 heavyweight champions.

Fleischer made his last list, ranking them in 1971.he placed Marciano at number 10.
More BS from you!

[Ivich]

I see this thread turned into a Marciano vs. Dempsey thread.

Well, I must ask who did Dempsey ever beat that is close to Marciano in clearly. I say cleanly because I don't count Sharkey who was in the lead until he was low blowed and Ko'd when complaining to the referee.

Jack was Ko'd in one round by Flynn, beaten by a fat Meehan, and had controversy in some of his best wins over Willard and Fripo, going down more than once in Fripo in short rounds. Willard was 37 and had not fought in 3.5 years!

Jack beat light heavyweights Gibbons and Carpentier, both of whom were under 176 lbs.

And he ducked his #1 contender in Wills and Greb! And had to come back to Ko Brennan late. When he fought Tunney at age 31-32 he was badly beaten and would have been Ko'd if the match was not only 10 rounds!

While Rocky on the other hand fought the best out there. Black or white and ducked no one.



So who do I pick?

I favor Dempsey very early rounds 1 -4 , and Marciano in rounds 5-15. Looking at Dempsey he only has one clean KO past round six. Hmmmmm.... Jack had a small gas tank. If forced to choose I pick Rocky via KO in the mid to late rounds.

"I see this thread turned into a Marciano vs. Dempsey thread."
NO IT HASNT.
YOU HAVE JUST SEEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO DUMP SOME MORE **** ON DEMPSEY.
Dempsey had a small gas tank? Did he? When in his prime did he flag in a fight?
He stopped Brennan in12 and outpointed Gibbons over 15,and went 10rds several times.

Dempsey had been put of the ring for 3 years when Tunney out boxed him and ,though past his best still dropped him in their 2nd fight.

.Don't turn this into another of your hate fests .as you have done about Dempsey,Johnson, and Louis many times.we don't want to hear it neither are we interested in your unasked for opinion of who wins out of them.
The subject is Marciano V Ali and their computer fight,not Dr Duck's opinion of Jack Dempsey!

[Dr. Z]

"I see this thread turned into a Marciano vs. Dempsey thread."
NO IT HASNT.
YOU HAVE JUST SEEN AN OPORTUNITY TO DUMP SOME MORE **** ON DEMPSEY.
Dempsey had a small gas tank? Did he when in his prime did he flag in a fight?
He stopped Brennan in12 and outpointed Gibbons over 15,and went 10rds several times.

Dempsey had been put of the ring for 3 years when Tunney out boxed him and ,though past his best still dropped him in their 2nd fight.

.Don't turn this into another of your hate fests .as you have done about Dempsey,Johnson, and Louis many times.we don't want to hear it neither are we interested in your unasked for opinion of who wins out of them.
The subject is Marciano V Ali and their computer fight,not Dr Duck's opinion of Jack Dempsey!

So you are saying he only fought over 12 rounds once, vs. a light heavyweight going the distance of 15 rounds. Do I have the right? Just checking!

Dempsey was a young man ( age 32 ) and out the less than 3 month for the rematch with Tunney after nearly being ko'd by Sharkey

"Sharkey took the count of ten after going down from a vicious left hook to the jaw. The Boston sailor had claimed a foul blow to the mid-section just before the climax, but the referee, Jack O'Sullivan, refused to allow it and counted him out. Dempsey?s knockout victory, which sent the crowd into a delirious outburst, followed a slashing, slugging battle from start to finish. The former champion, staggered in the first round and groggy, came back to force the fighting and finally dropped his young rival." (Associated Press)
This was a heavyweight tournament elimination bout, with the winner to meet current World Champion Gene Tunney for a shot at his title.

Sharkey was complaining of the low blow to the ref when Dempsey took the opportunity to land the KO blow. Protect yourself at all time, right? Even when you are hit with a low blow and talking to the ref.


He did KO Brennan in 12 but Brennan was the average to below average contender of the times who beat? He lost often vs. the best the fought and eight different men beat him!

Brennan's best round was the second, when he landed two smashing uppercuts which had Dempsey in trouble. A left and right to the body put Brennan down for the full count in round 12. Brennan protested that he had beaten the count.

- Box rec

I have posted before that Dempsey was in fact behind in the fight. Do you watch any film?

• The Canadian Press Service reported: "The champion proved to be Brennan's master in nearly every stage of the bout."
• Some claimed that Dempsey knocked out Brennan with a rabbit punch.
• The July 1964 issue of Boxing Illustrated had an article about the Dempsey-Brennan fight titled "Dempsey's Toughest Fight: It wasn't with Firpo—it was with Bill Brennan."

Sounds like Dempsey has his hands full, right?


These two title defenses show Dempsey being suspect in the chin department and rather foul prone don't they? YES they do,

Tunney won 18 or 19 for 20 Rounds vs Dempsey. He owned him.


On the fight of Marciano vs Ali, I give Rocky a shot, say about 35% chance of victory IF both men were in shape and their prime.

[BKM-]

Can't you guys ever play nice?

[ShoulderRoll]

"Those two" in my former post refer to Tunney and Arcel - not Rose and Fleischer. Sorry for not making that clear.

Ok, so forget about Tunney and Arcel.

What do you have to say about Nat Fleischer and Charley Rose also ranking Marciano behind his betters?

[them_apples]

Lastarza and Cockell were stationary targets at the end yet finished on their feet.
Walcott 38 was worn down to the point he was resorting to leaning on the ropes,to save his legs.

Louis 37 was doing okay until his legs went on him.

Layne was rendered ready to go by a steady body bombardment.

Archie Moore 41 was tenderized over 9 rounds, before being ground down."he got to me by sheer bulldogging grit"

Walcott decided to stay down in their 2nd fight.
Charles went the distance and that was his last stand, the prolonged punishment he received took some thing out of him and he wasn't the same in the rematch
"couldn't catch?"
None of the above were boxing on the retreat!
Mathews was a one punch ko,but he,at179lbs was an overstuffed Lhvy.

Willis Applegate who was11-14-2 and had lost his last 5 fights ,went the distance with Rocky without being floored.

Rocky's best 1 punch ko may have been over Bernie Reynolds,but I don't think there is any film of it.

imo Marciano was like Frazier, he wore you down.That is the definition of an attrition puncher!

This is an odd perspective considering most of those guys ended up sleeping and injured. If he exhausts them first to connect a perfect shot that would make sense. Its not always easy landing the perfect shot.

because he is short armed and not fast on his feet Marciano had to find ways to get to his oponents. But when he got that perfect shot in he folded guys. Ive never seen anyone go down the way a marciano puts them down. Not even julian jackson or shavers.

ive never seen someone go down like layne in slow motion and not move for an extended period if time, with all his front teeth out and stuck in his mouth piece. The punch was tremendously hard

[Bundana]

Ok, so forget about Tunney and Arcel.

What do you have to say about Nat Fleischer and Charley Rose also ranking Marciano behind his betters?

I don't agree with Fleischer ranking Marciano behind Fitz and Corbett. I think he would likely beat both of them - and possibly also Schmeling.

As for Rose, I can't agree with him having McVey over Marciano.


I'm not sure, how Rocky would do against someone like Jeffries! Depends on how bad prime Jeffries really was - but keeping in mind, that he had his hands full against smaller fighters like Sharkey, Corbett and (especially) Fitz, I find it difficult to favor him against Marciano with too much conviction.

[Bundana]

This is an odd perspective considering most of those guys ended up sleeping and injured. If he exhausts them first to connect a perfect shot that would make sense. Its not always easy landing the perfect shot.

because he is short armed and not fast on his feet Marciano had to find ways to get to his oponents. But when he got that perfect shot in he folded guys. Ive never seen anyone go down the way a marciano puts them down. Not even julian jackson or shavers.

ive never seen someone go down like layne in slow motion and not move for an extended period if time, with all his front teeth out and stuck in his mouth piece. The punch was tremendously hard

So Marciano was such a tremendous hitter, that his opponents fell from his punches in a special way - a way that we have never seen before or since? Sure, why not...