Let’s get this straight about the Ali-Marciano comp fight

[them_apples]

Here is what Rocky Marciano said of Sonny Liston after Liston knocked out Mike DeJohn in 1959

"His left jab is the best of any fighter i've seen since Louis. This fellow gets real force into his jabs like Joe used to do. He's great, just great. The left jab set up DeJohn. Then Liston cut him down with a body attack. To me, he appeared a more effective body puncher than Charles. I would have to say Ez is a better boxer. I thought Liston looped his punches more than he should. He should shorten 'em up more. He can move faster than Jersey Joe. I don't know [if he can take a punch]. He really didn't have to fighting DeJohn. A couple of uppercuts shook him, his legs wobbled but he came right back again."​

When are we going to see all these quotes from Sonny praising Marciano?

this quote of yours isn’t really praising Liston. He’s being respectful and all, I don’t think this sounds like he thinks Liston can beat him. If you knew enough about Rocky you would know this isn’t true anyways. Theres no way Marciano was scared of Liston or thought he couldn’t beat him. Marciano had almost sociopathic tendancies.


he also said this Liston is like most big bullies, if you can stay away and make him miss for a few rounds he'll get frustrated. Once you strip away that feeling of invincibility, he can be had

he also said after Liston quit against Ali he knew he would have licked Liston

There is a quote out there, and it shows up on google when you search it, however the source is from a book I just can’t remember and google is failing me.

regardless, read the article and listen to what the rock says.

ok your assessment of Marcianos style is off. Yeah he sells it like he’s a brawler who walks forward, but he is a very clever and thoroughbred fighter who makes you miss and make mistakes. If Charles and Moore struggled to land flush (they did, Moore got one or 2 good shots in) then Liston will struggle as well.

find me one fight were Rocky consistently is eating punches like Joe Frazier does, and finishes the fight with both eyes shut? Never happened. Chuvalo is an example of someone who takes one to throw one.

what people confuse about him is this : he’s not scared to get hit and doesn’t give a damn if you do hit him. He can’t be hurt or discouraged, he likes fighting too much. Look at the expression on his face when he fights. It looks like a kid working on his car having the time of his life. Tongue out and focused.

Marciano was trained by goldman and Freddy Brown, and considering he spent 90 percent of his time in the gym, you would certainly figure him to be better than the dumb misinformed stereotypical idea that he is a face first brawler.

we need to get over the fact that his prime weight is 187 lbs. because outside of that figure Marciano punches way outside if his weight class in both strength and durability. He has a very low center of gravity. Most of his weight is Torso and thighs. With short legs and arms. He can naturally produce a lot more leverage than most fighters, who have to land at the very end of their shot.

the other factor is he’s running 12-15 miles at his peak in camp. No heavyweight does that. Not even light heavies than moved up. Marciano was a stocky short legged dude running 15 miles in construction boots. Thats gonna require a heart as strong as a horse. I think you severely underate Marciano as do a lot of posters. Severely! Its actually unbelievable to read about, but so many sources state the same thing.

Mike Tyson was not built for running because of his build, he would do 3-5 miles for a run and that was it. Its exhausting when you are stocky with short limbs but heavy.

Marcianos willpower was clearly outrageous

[Willie Pep 229]

Yes Duva hero worshipped Rocky,there is nothing there that says Liston was afraid of Marciano.
A short, slow guy with a tiny reach and a porous defence,with suspect skin tissue, is just who Liston would pick as a showcase for his strengths.

At range he jabs his face into raw hamburger,in close he ragdolls him and uppercuts the life out of him.

A past prime Sonny wanted Frazier,why would he, in his prime be afraid of an old fat Rocky?

No one was ever really afraid of anyone. The people on this forum who call these great fighters and champions cowards should be taken out in the street and shot.

Just my humble opinion.

[Ivich]

this quote of yours isnât really praising Liston. Heâs being respectful and all, I donât think this sounds like he thinks Liston can beat him. If you knew enough about Rocky you would know this isnât true anyways. Theres no way Marciano was scared of Liston or thought he couldnât beat him. Marciano had almost sociopathic tendancies.


he also said this Liston is like most big bullies, if you can stay away and make him miss for a few rounds he'll get frustrated. Once you strip away that feeling of invincibility, he can be had

he also said after Liston quit against Ali he knew he would have licked Liston

There is a quote out there, and it shows up on google when you search it, however the source is from a book I just canâÃÂÃÂt remember and google is failing me.

regardless, read the article and listen to what the rock says.

ok your assessment of Marcianos style is off. Yeah he sells it like heâÃÂÃÂs a brawler who walks forward, but he is a very clever and thoroughbred fighter who makes you miss and make mistakes. If Charles and Moore struggled to land flush (they did, Moore got one or 2 good shots in) then Liston will struggle as well.

find me one fight were Rocky consistently is eating punches like Joe Frazier does, and finishes the fight with both eyes shut? Never happened. Chuvalo is an example of someone who takes one to throw one.

what people confuse about him is this : heâÃÂÃÂs not scared to get hit and doesnâÃÂÃÂt give a damn if you do hit him. He canâÃÂÃÂt be hurt or discouraged, he likes fighting too much. Look at the expression on his face when he fights. It looks like a kid working on his car having the time of his life. Tongue out and focused.

Marciano was trained by goldman and Freddy Brown, and considering he spent 90 percent of his time in the gym, you would certainly figure him to be better than the dumb misinformed stereotypical idea that he is a face first brawler.

we need to get over the fact that his prime weight is 187 lbs. because outside of that figure Marciano punches way outside if his weight class in both strength and durability. He has a very low center of gravity. Most of his weight is Torso and thighs. With short legs and arms. He can naturally produce a lot more leverage than most fighters, who have to land at the very end of their shot.

the other factor is heâÃÂÃÂs running 12-15 miles at his peak in camp. No heavyweight does that. Not even light heavies than moved up. Marciano was a stocky short legged dude running 15 miles in construction boots. Thats gonna require a heart as strong as a horse. I think you severely underate Marciano as do a lot of posters. Severely! Its actually unbelievable to read about, but so many sources state the same thing.

Mike Tyson was not built for running because of his build, he would do 3-5 miles for a run and that was it. Its exhausting when you are stocky with short limbs but heavy.

Marcianos willpower was clearly outrageous

You are entitled to your opinion.Freddy Brown never trained Marciano,he was brought in on a fight by fight basis to act as cut man.

Marciano's roadwork was the subject of an extensive debate on another site.
The consensus was he ran 5/6 miles daily.

1. "For comparison, assuming their memories are good about their training when interviewed decades later:
   
   Ken Norton: 3-8 miles, "depending on my progress in training camp"
   
   Muhammad Ali: "about 6 miles," which he claims he usually did in about 40 minutes running in "army-type boots"
   
   Leon Spinks: 6 miles a day, 6 days a week, with Sunday off.
   
   Source: Workouts from Boxing's Greatest Champs, Gary Todd (2005, ABC Books); information taken from standardized questionnaire interviews from Norton, Spinks, and Ali.
   
   
   Allowing for a bit of exaggeration, inexact calculations, and cloudy memories, this isn't too far off from what the Marciano sources @Seamus found are claiming for Marciano. It sounds pretty standard for well-conditioned elite athletes from the mid-century, pre-Shilstone era."

[ShoulderRoll]

I’m sorry, but there is no heavyweight champion more overrated than Marciano.

Those who were alive to see both him and the champions who preceded him rarely bootlicked him.

[Slugfester]

I wish I could make that audio file attach. It verbally calls a fictional bout between Marciano and Liston. Just for fun. But it seems this place will not accept a wave file.

[Ivich]

I’m sorry, but there is no heavyweight champion more overrated than Marciano.

Those who were alive to see both him and the champions who preceded him rarely bootlicked him.

I have 1950's Ring magazines who rate him as a " Poor man's Dempsey."

[ShoulderRoll]

I have 1950's Ring magazines who rate him as a " Poor man's Dempsey."

Ask most fans today and they’ll rank Marciano much higher than Dempsey. It comes from being ill informed on boxing history.

[Marchegiano]

I’m sorry, but there is no heavyweight champion more overrated than Marciano.

Those who were alive to see both him and the champions who preceded him rarely bootlicked him.

So you rate men based off the popularity of them at their time? And you assume this is the best reflection of boxing ability?

I ain't even need to ask you anything ever, just pop over to Ring for your opinion on any given era?


Or is it a pick and choose sort of deal where you take on board the sentiment of the day out of convenience? Ali is only good when he becomes The Greatest? Before then he's an uppity negro?

Jack Johnson, not so good, the men during his era didn't like him much.

Jack Dempsey, infallible, because his era ****** his nutz.

Fitzs is super overrated, no one then treated like going from MW to HW was anything special at all.

Lennox Lewis just some blown up brit with no chance of beating out all the great American HWs.




Since, ya know, Ali sucking them nuts later when Rocco is old and fat isn't good enough I can not understand why sucking JJ nuts after he's old and fat washes away the decades of racial abuse or after Lennox beats Mike and Evander Americans giving him any respect should matter.



Because the immediate reaction is so, so, so important in boxing history, all legacies circle around it.




TBH, IMO, if you didn't realize how ****** this position was after my first line you deserved all that absurdity thrown at you, and more, goddamn that's a dumb ass thing to say in the history section of a boxing forum. TF you got? A handful of ****ers that were actually appreciated in their time? Pretty much every one not named Sullivan or Dempsey was under appreciated during their time. FFS.




I know you're not as interested in pre-modern boxing as I, but, have you a guess anyway, when in history do you think you can read a time when the active fighters are not compared unfavorably to yesteryear? Yeah, exactly, that's not Rocky, you goofy prick, that's the vast majority of men who ever boxed ever, period, regardless of culture, place, rules, race, religions, or anything else that might maybe logically cause a change.












Just to clarify:

One idiot who thinks reporting is not bias in favor of past eras ... in boxing. I really do not give a **** what era, pick one, it's a ****** ass thing to say regardless. Make it the ****ing 1850s and it's still ******ed. Make it the ****ing 1990s and it is ******ed. Make it the 1890s and it is ******ed. It's just a really ****** thing to say. Not ignorant, this ****er knows better, it is ******.

Another idiot who thinks plagiarism and selling ratings to promoters does not discredit the reliability of a publication. Ivich gonna pretend to be ignorant but he knows the **** was founded by taking Tex's money and having him approve ratings ... but don't call it sold ratings to a promoter doe. That's not ignorance poppa, that's tardance. Ya ****in' ****** bro.

[Ivich]

So you rate men based off the popularity of them at their time? And you assume this is the best reflection of boxing ability?

I ain't even need to ask you anything ever, just pop over to Ring for your opinion on any given era?


Or is it a pick and choose sort of deal where you take on board the sentiment of the day out of convenience? Ali is only good when he becomes The Greatest? Before then he's an uppity negro?

Jack Johnson, not so good, the men during his era didn't like him much.

Jack Dempsey, infallible, because his era ****** his nutz.

Fitzs is super overrated, no one then treated like going from MW to HW was anything special at all.

Lennox Lewis just some blown up brit with no chance of beating out all the great American HWs.




Since, ya know, Ali sucking them nuts later when Rocco is old and fat isn't good enough I can not understand why sucking JJ nuts after he's old and fat washes away the decades of racial abuse or after Lennox beats Mike and Evander Americans giving him any respect should matter.



Because the immediate reaction is so, so, so important in boxing history, all legacies circle around it.




TBH, IMO, if you didn't realize how ****** this position was after my first line you deserved all that absurdity thrown at you, and more, goddamn that's a dumb ass thing to say in the history section of a boxing forum. TF you got? A handful of ****ers that were actually appreciated in their time? Pretty much every one not named Sullivan or Dempsey was under appreciated during their time. FFS.




I know you're not as interested in pre-modern boxing as I, but, have you a guess anyway, when in history do you think you can read a time when the active fighters are not compared unfavorably to yesteryear? Yeah, exactly, that's not Rocky, you goofy prick, that's the vast majority of men who ever boxed ever, period, regardless of culture, place, rules, race, religions, or anything else that might maybe logically cause a change.












Just to clarify:

One idiot who thinks reporting is not bias in favor of past eras ... in boxing. I really do not give a **** what era, pick one, it's a ****** ass thing to say regardless. Make it the ****ing 1850s and it's still ******ed. Make it the ****ing 1990s and it is ******ed. Make it the 1890s and it is ******ed. It's just a really ****** thing to say. Not ignorant, this ****er knows better, it is ******.

Another idiot who thinks plagiarism and selling ratings to promoters does not discredit the reliability of a publication. Ivich gonna pretend to be ignorant but he knows the **** was founded by taking Tex's money and having him approve ratings ... but don't call it sold ratings to a promoter doe. That's not ignorance poppa, that's tardance. Ya ****in' ****** bro.

I wouldn't have responded to this rant but,since I have been named I feel justified in answering.
Rickard ,at the invitation of Fleischer made the first Ring ratings.Tex did not contribute any money to them ,neither did he finance in any way the Ring magazine.
After these unverified accusations of Fleischer selling ratings to promoters,is it too much to ask for some proof?
The only verified instance I can find was the Don King American Championships when John Ort , hence forth called "John Bought," took under the counter money to rate undeserving fighters ,which occurred after Fleischer was dead.
As Nat Loubet,the then Editor and Fleischer's son in law said."lie down with dogs,you get up with fleas.

Exactly what the Ring ratings have to do with how Marciano was perceived in his own era escapes me?

I was quite prepared to let sleeping dogs lie as far as you and I are concerned and said so publicly on this forum.I still am but, if you wish to continue in this way.I shall reciprocate.
It's blatantly obvious that you have a personality disorder,and anger management issues.
You have gone way over the top in your reply to Shoulder Roll there was absolutely no need for the ludicrous tirade of personal insults you directed at him,he deserved none of them!

If I may, I suggest you re - read your post,and ponder on your absurd behaviour.
Hoping we can put this behind us,and continue in some sort of harmony, but realistically , I do not do so any great confidence.

[QueensburyRules]

Ask most fans today and they’ll rank Marciano much higher than Dempsey. It comes from being ill informed on boxing history.

- - Fans are dumbos. IBRO has always ranked both high, but Dempsey higher.