Boxing's Lost Arts?

[Slugfester]

OK but that's because boxing is an art. Boxing is a martial art. So I understand why you don't see these tactics as an art. They don't equate to that martial art of boxing.

But prize fighting is an art unto itself, and these tactics, (one of which happens to be the martial art of boxing,) have been employed by master fighters since its conception.

If you accept hitting with an open glove an art and not a tactic, why then do you consider the other tactics not part of the art?

Certainly no one considers hitting with a open glove a part of proper boxing.

Anyway, it is an interesting question to return too as new thoughts arise.

________________

It was Lou Duva who bragged to Jim Lampley that he taught Meldrick Taylor how to throw off Chavez's timing by hitting him on the kidney belt as he came in.

Watch the fight with that in mind and you will see two things, that Taylor did it all night long, and that it worked. But yes, a tactic, not an art. I guess!

I don't want to go into Z/Ivey mode, sir, but you have seriously misrepresented me.

I said nought about hitting with an open glove. Are you emotional? The title says, "Parry." The dictionary says:

ward off (a weapon or attack) with a countermove.
"he parried the blow by holding his sword vertically

Hitting with open gloves is on your no-no list.

[Willie Pep 229]

I don't want to go into Z/Ivey mode, sir, but you have seriously misrepresented me.

I said nought about hitting with an open glove. Are you emotional? The title says, "Parry." The dictionary says:

ward off (a weapon or attack) with a countermove.
"he parried the blow by holding his sword vertically

Hitting with open gloves is on your no-no list.

I misunderstood. My apologies! Sincerely.

The visual I am now getting of "open glove parry" is from boxing scences in Hollywood films. But realistic sparing.

I can see it now, and no, no one does that anymore, that I'v seen anyway.

[billeau2]

I think open glove parrying is something I seldom if ever see today. I believe this only results from an equipment change--glove size--rendering the technique somewhat obsolete. What are boxing's lost arts, and maybe why. I assume there are nearly lost arts as well. I will take either.

Ok, but don't yell at me if I want to provide a bit of context ok? Boxing was originally derived from fencing, but it also had roots in the actual art of fighting with the fists. Having such skills improved fighting... Margiano has done research on such things as "Rough and Tumble" and the Greek ideology of fighting for personal glory... So when Figg went about constructing the art, it had certain assumptions, that eventually combined with the realities of fist fighting. Boxing arts developed in other places as well as Marseilles (Boxing Savate), etc where the skills were integrated efficiently.

In Figg's boxing a fighter's priority was to have the hands functional... this created fighters that originally used a forward lead, the wrist was kept straight, no pronation, unlike the jab. The punch was used primarily to hit the tip of the chin.

I will add some more techniques later.

[Rockin']

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but........

The feint.

Draw a guy out and it's like catching him with his pants down.

....................Rockin'

[Slugfester]

Ok, but don't yell at me if I want to provide a bit of context ok?

I will add some more techniques later.

HOW DARE YOU PROVIDE CONTEXT!!! And don't even think about adding techniques later, mister!!

[billeau2]

HOW DARE YOU PROVIDE CONTEXT!!! And don't even think about adding techniques later, mister!!

Ok another one: How fighters punched... With the original gloves, because there was enough of a connection between the hand and the target, a fighter threw the punch in a straight line to the head, with the body redistributing weight forwards... Of course body punches were a little different (more in a moment).

You can all try this: hit a target, try using speed, then perhaps swing the arm around hard into the blow, then just hit with the fist held in a natural position, rock from the back to the front leg, as you get better time it so you can let the hand go like a piston timing the hit with the weight transfer. All the above ways are ways of generating power on a shot, which can be augmented by things like rotating the hitting hand, stepping and landing as the blow hits the target...

As gloves got bigger the technique of generating power had to change dramatically.

[Slugfester]

This video clearly shows high master Benny Leonard using the open glove parry right from the opening bell. You can also see how it works as a subtle feint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrC2TemHi8I

[QueensburyRules]

Ok another one: How fighters punched... With the original gloves, because there was enough of a connection between the hand and the target, a fighter threw the punch in a straight line to the head, with the body redistributing weight forwards... Of course body punches were a little different (more in a moment).

You can all try this: hit a target, try using speed, then perhaps swing the arm around hard into the blow, then just hit with the fist held in a natural position, rock from the back to the front leg, as you get better time it so you can let the hand go like a piston timing the hit with the weight transfer. All the above ways are ways of generating power on a shot, which can be augmented by things like rotating the hitting hand, stepping and landing as the blow hits the target...

As gloves got bigger the technique of generating power had to change dramatically.

- - Heavier the gloves the more momentum transferred to the noggin.

Used spar half my heavybag time bare knuckled for a better feel of a natural fight. My bag gloves were very light, but for wraps, again, I used two old socks wrapped over the knuckles secured by the fist for a similar feel. Plus I moved with the bag for footwork as either going on attack or in retreat.

Copied the exact reverse foot work, body positioning, and sharp straight right counter Ali used for the 1st round KD. It's a nothing shot, but caught Sonny lurching forward while bent down, an off balance shot, a legit KD but a nothing shot otherwise.

Alas, Walcott and Nat ruined that fight that gave young Ali his foot in the door with the rest being history.

[billeau2]

- - Heavier the gloves the more momentum transferred to the noggin.

Used spar half my heavybag time bare knuckled for a better feel of a natural fight. My bag gloves were very light, but for wraps, again, I used two old socks wrapped over the knuckles secured by the fist for a similar feel. Plus I moved with the bag for footwork as either going on attack or in retreat.

Copied the exact reverse foot work, body positioning, and sharp straight right counter Ali used for the 1st round KD. It's a nothing shot, but caught Sonny lurching forward while bent down, an off balance shot, a legit KD but a nothing shot otherwise.

Alas, Walcott and Nat ruined that fight that gave young Ali his foot in the door with the rest being history.

it depends... technically if all remain constant, the glove has mass and that translates as more force... But the connection is the issue. If I take a 30 amp line of electricity and it is shorting, versus a 15 amp line plugged in and working... When the structural elements of the hand directly transfer mass, there is much less loss of force, and the force transmitts across the skeletal structure from the ground up with no leaks...

Yeah I like to use bare knuckle as well...

[Willie Pep 229]

No real experience with this but it looks to me there is a 'weight line' in gloves that effects the striking power.

What I am trying to say:

No gloves-to-five ounce gloves is the base needed for protecting the hand. Got to have at least 5oz for the hand.

Once the 6oz size is reached, with well taped hands, the fighter can hit as hard as he likes,with only a small chance of injury to the hand.

So that's the line needed to protect the hand.

As you start to ad ounces to the gloves, usually, 8, 10, 12 ounce gloves, you now begin to add safety to the opponent being hit. (The fighter was already throwing as hard as he could with the 6oz gloves so nothing changed there, only more padding.)

So IMHO (and weak theory) it would mean that the Reyes 6oz glove is the most deadly. E.g. Reyes divides the 6oz across the glove more evenly that Everlast, where a larger portion of the padding is on the knuckles. So getting hit with a Reyes probably hurts more than Everlast.

I would love to be corrected on this notion. So please do.