How underrated is Jack Johnson

[mrbig1]

wait a minute. Johnson is underrated. I've been following boxing for 59 years. I was nine years old when I saw Clay beat Liston. Everyone has Johnson as one of the great HW's of all time. Fights in which Johnson is known for were two guys who were 4 inches shorter and forty pounds lighter. One way over the hill has been. I'm not saying he is not great. But these are the fights everybody points to I don't think Burns or Ketchel could beat Michael Spinks. Sorry bros just the way I see things.

[Ivich]

It's a myth that every white man wanted Johnson to fail and would do anything to see to it that he failed. It was a white sheriff you entered the ring to disqualify Flynn for his dirty tactics against Johnson. White news reporters judged him fairly when they scored fights in his favor. While he did face an abundance of adversity, there were in fact a lot of fair and non-prejudiced whites who gave him his due respect.

The fans who celebrate the Jeffries win as some great conquest would laugh their asses off if a washed up former champ came off a six year retirement and had to lose close to 100 pounds to get in shape for the fight. No one gives credit to Hector Camacho defeating a washed up Ray Leonard after Leonard came out of a six year retirement. Speaking of Jones, no sane individual believes Danny Green or Lebedev were greater fighters than him because they KO'd a washed up version of Roy.

Johnson's resume is stacked with big names but doesn't provide the context of when he fought some of these opponents during their respective careers. Similar to Floyd, who never fought an elite level opponent at their best. When I consider a fighter "overrated" that doesn't imply he still cannot be a good or even great fighter. It just means they received more praise and adulation for their boxing prowess than deserved.

Do you think it possible the"white sheriff stopped the fight because he found the spectacle of Flynn losing every round and being punished with impunity by the grinning Johnson less than edifying?
Do you also think the majority of the white audience at the Johnson v Hart fight judged Johnson fairly?
Who celebrates Johnson's win over Jeffries as anything spectacular?
Is it just possible that Johnson actually made Jeffries look like **** because in part he was that much better than him?

It should be noted that Jeffries himself was the beneficiary of wins over faded retired former champions in fact,I'd say they constitute his two biggest wins.
The same people deprecating Johnson's wins over Ketchel and Burns on grounds of size, are deafeningly silent about the huge weight disparity Jeffries enjoyed over 90% of his opponents.
I don't think anyone is suggesting every white guy was against Johnson on racial grounds ,there have been decent people in every era,just as there are still racists around today

[Ivich]

wait a minute. Johnson is underrated. I've been following boxing for 59 years. I was nine years old when I saw Clay beat Liston. Everyone has Johnson as one of the great HW's of all time. Fights in which Johnson is known for were two guys who were 4 inches shorter and forty pounds lighter. One way over the hill has been. I'm not saying he is not great. But these are the fights everybody points to I don't think Burns or Ketchel could beat Michael Spinks. Sorry bros just the way I see things.

Nothing wrong with airing your honest opinion.

[GhostofDempsey]

Do you think it possible the"white sheriff stopped the fight because he found the spectacle of Flynn losing every round and being punished with impunity by the grinning Johnson less than edifying?
Do you also think the majority of the white audience at the Johnson v Hart fight judged Johnson fairly?
Who celebrates Johnson's win over Jeffries as anything spectacular?
Is it just possible that Johnson actually made Jeffries look like **** because in part he was that much better than him?

It should be noted that Jeffries himself was the beneficiary of wins over faded retired former champions in fact,I'd say they constitute his two biggest wins.
The same people deprecating Johnson's wins over Ketchel and Burns on grounds of size, are deafeningly silent about the huge weight disparity Jeffries enjoyed over 90% of his opponents.
I don't think anyone is suggesting every white guy was against Johnson on racial grounds ,there have been decent people in every era,just as there are still racists around today

I'm not suggesting a majority of whites supported him, but there were in fact whites who were. Johnson was also using some questionable tactics during the Flynn fight and that sheriff could just as easily disqualified him if he was stopping the fight out of some racial bias.

There are posters who have suggested Jeffries was in top form and game for Johnson. That he didn't actually have to lose all that much weight. I've witnessed some of the taunting posts made by particular posters regarding this fight, which I won't resurrect. I'm not a big Jeffries fan, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.

Choynski was as big as Jeffries and they fought to a close draw. An older version of Choynski would go on to spark Johnson out. No one brags about the Choynski win because Johnson was just 23 and fighting in his 11th official fight. Yet, fans of Johnson will boast of his wins over McVey, Jeannette and Langford under similar circumstances. Fitz was a lot fresher for his fights with Jeffries than his loss to Johnson. He hadn't suffered a lot of wear and tear in his career leading to the Jeffries fights despite being in his mid-30s by the time they fought.

[Ivich]

I'm not suggesting a majority of whites supported him, but there were in fact whites who were. Johnson was also using some questionable tactics during the Flynn fight and that sheriff could just as easily disqualified him if he was stopping the fight out of some racial bias.

There are posters who have suggested Jeffries was in top form and game for Johnson. That he didn't actually have to lose all that much weight. I've witnessed some of the taunting posts made by particular posters regarding this fight, which I won't resurrect. I'm not a big Jeffries fan, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.

Choynski was as big as Jeffries and they fought to a close draw. An older version of Choynski would go on to spark Johnson out. No one brags about the Choynski win because Johnson was just 23 and fighting in his 11th official fight. Yet, fans of Johnson will boast of his wins over McVey, Jeannette and Langford under similar circumstances. Fitz was a lot fresher for his fights with Jeffries than his loss to Johnson. He hadn't suffered a lot of wear and tear in his career leading to the Jeffries fights despite being in his mid-30s by the time they fought.

Pollack estimates Johnson was around the same size as Choynski,ie a super middle.
Choynski was 52 lbs lighter than Jeffries ,are you getting him confused with Ruhlin who was 12 lbs lighter than Jeff when they drew?
What could the Sheriff have dsq'd Johnson for?
Johnson himself said he took no credit for beating the shell of Fitzsimmons.
Fitz had been retired for 2 years when he got his long awaited rematch with Jeffries, he was 39 years old 12 years older than Jeffries.In that era 39 was an old man for a boxer ,had bad hands and had fought 82 recorded fights.
Cosmetically Jeffries looked fine for Johnson he had a six pack,his weight was good and in photos he looked in better shape than he had for his last fight with Munro,but his judgement of distance,and his wind were not there.I don't accept his strength was affected,but his stamina almost certainly was.

[Willie Pep 229]

Do you think it possible the"white sheriff stopped the fight because he found the spectacle of Flynn losing every round and being punished with impunity by the grinning Johnson less than edifying?
Do you also think the majority of the white audience at the Johnson v Hart fight judged Johnson fairly?
Who celebrates Johnson's win over Jeffries as anything spectacular?
Is it just possible that Johnson actually made Jeffries look like **** because in part he was that much better than him?

It should be noted that Jeffries himself was the beneficiary of wins over faded retired former champions in fact,I'd say they constitute his two biggest wins.
The same people deprecating Johnson's wins over Ketchel and Burns on grounds of size, are deafeningly silent about the huge weight disparity Jeffries enjoyed over 90% of his opponents.
I don't think anyone is suggesting every white guy was against Johnson on racial grounds ,there have been decent people in every era,just as there are still racists around today

I feel certain the Interstate Prohibition against Fight Films is tied directly to Fireman Jim Flynn's horrid performance. He humiliated himself and to the mind of White Supremacists, them by proxy.

In May of 1912 Thetus Sims, congressman from Tennessee, introduced the interstate boxing prohibition bill to the House.

The Yellow Dogs were seeking to cut off JJ's revenue streams and were bragging how he was being forced to fight in nowhere New Mexico because they closed down the rest of the nation to him.

JJ foolishly answered these taunts, with taunts of his own, bragging how he would make his big money off the film.

This lit a fIre under the Yellow Dogs who took to both the floor of the Senate and House with vicious hate speech, 'declaring the Negro needed to be stopped.'

This rhetoric turned against them when the anti-boxing progressive reformers were forced to measure the hope of banning boxing against the Yellow Dogs' racism, and chose not to support the bill.

On June 30th Congress went into summer recess with the bill dead.

The fight went off as scheduled on July 4th.

Congress reassembled on July 30th and the very next day on July 31st 1912 passed the Sims Bill into law.

There was no doubt in anyone's mind that if White Society became violent over the Jeffries loss in 1910, the trouble this time, once the Johnson-Flynn film hit the theaters, would be over the top.


The anti-boxing (*******) reformers saw no choice but to now support the bill despite its racist intent.

The federal government NEEDED to impound that film.

I believe if Flynn's performance had been reasonable, better at some level, Sims may never have gotten the progressive votes he needed to pass the bill.

[GhostofDempsey]

Pollack estimates Johnson was around the same size as Choynski,ie a super middle.
Choynski was 52 lbs lighter than Jeffries ,are you getting him confused with Ruhlin who was 12 lbs lighter than Jeff when they drew?
What could the Sheriff have dsq'd Johnson for?
Johnson himself said he took no credit for beating the shell of Fitzsimmons.
Fitz had been retired for 2 years when he got his long awaited rematch with Jeffries, he was 39 years old 12 years older than Jeffries.In that era 39 was an old man for a boxer ,had bad hands and had fought 82 recorded fights.
Cosmetically Jeffries looked fine for Johnson he had a six pack,his weight was good and in photos he looked in better shape than he had for his last fight with Munro,but his judgement of distance,and his wind were not there.I don't accept his strength was affected,but his stamina almost certainly was.

Estimates range from Choynski being 30 - 50 pounds lighter but with superior reach and footwork and could hit just as hard. The Jackson fight is a better representation or comparison to the Johnson/Jeffries fight. Jackson was also inactive for several years and well beyond his prime when he lost to Jeffries.

The first half of the Flynn rematch was just a foul-filled affair from both fighters. Johnson tied him up often, pushed his head down, and used his size advantage while leaning his weight on him. Flynn got frustrated and resorted to headbutts. The sheriff had opportunities to call it early on if he were truly looking for a racial motive to end it and steal Johnson's title.

[billeau2]

It's a myth that every white man wanted Johnson to fail and would do anything to see to it that he failed. It was a white sheriff you entered the ring to disqualify Flynn for his dirty tactics against Johnson. White news reporters judged him fairly when they scored fights in his favor. While he did face an abundance of adversity, there were in fact a lot of fair and non-prejudiced whites who gave him his due respect.

The fans who celebrate the Jeffries win as some great conquest would laugh their asses off if a washed up former champ came off a six year retirement and had to lose close to 100 pounds to get in shape for the fight. No one gives credit to Hector Camacho defeating a washed up Ray Leonard after Leonard came out of a six year retirement. Speaking of Jones, no sane individual believes Danny Green or Lebedev were greater fighters than him because they KO'd a washed up version of Roy.

Johnson's resume is stacked with big names but doesn't provide the context of when he fought some of these opponents during their respective careers. Similar to Floyd, who never fought an elite level opponent at their best. When I consider a fighter "overrated" that doesn't imply he still cannot be a good or even great fighter. It just means they received more praise and adulation for their boxing prowess than deserved.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule... There have always been progressive individuals. But there were many fighters, i dare say most, who would not cross the color line. The point about Jones was simply that he managed to fight Hopkins young and fight Toney when he was at his best, not really to compare post Tarver Jones with Jeffries. I agree about Floyd. I would say though, like Floyd at 135 and below, you can see tape that shows incredible skills. That does provide some context. I don't know, have not made up my mind about JOhnson and if he was perhaps overrated, for me it is a hard question to answer.

[Ivich]

Estimates range from Choynski being 30 - 50 pounds lighter but with superior reach and footwork and could hit just as hard. The Jackson fight is a better representation or comparison to the Johnson/Jeffries fight. Jackson was also inactive for several years and well beyond his prime when he lost to Jeffries.


The first half of the Flynn rematch was just a foul-filled affair from both fighters. Johnson tied him up often, pushed his head down, and used his size advantage while leaning his weight on him. Flynn got frustrated and resorted to headbutts. The sheriff had opportunities to call it early on if he were truly looking for a racial motive to end it and steal Johnson's title.

Jackson was 37 years old ,consumptive and an alcoholic,he died inside 4 years after their fight.I don't see the similarity.

Tom Sharkey said he would have been ashamed to fight him. Johnson tying up Flynn wasn't a foul,nor was leaning his weight on him.I have the round by round report of it and the referees statement.
Flynn was practising those head butts and other fouls in training,which led to Tommy Ryan who was training him to quit the camp in disgust .
Choynski was out reached by Jeffries.
Let's you and me keep this cordial, as we have so far.