How underrated is Jack Johnson

[GhostofDempsey]

Look up what Ken Burns says.
Its a work of fiction ,the point, which you missed by several miles is that Mendoza does exactly what you are now accusing me of i e selective quoting which I AM DOING but not to win the argument ,I've already won the argument, I won it 17 years ago!
I can however see what you might think.

No, you are employing a double standard. If you truly "won the argument" you wouldn't still be arguing.

[GhostofDempsey]

I found him to be the opposite. He was a good skillful fighter. But his best wins were against McVey who was 19/20 years old and had less than ten fights during each of their bouts. Jeannette who had less than 20 and already had some losses before fighting Jack. In fact, after 23 fights his record stood at 9-11-3. He was improving with each fight and fought Johnson to a tough draw in their last fight. Langford who was a small middleweight at the time and just 20 years old. Ketchel a middleweight, Fitzsimmons was washed up, Jeffries washed up after a six year retirement, Burns was much smaller. His first fight against Flynn. He also didn't lift the sport up. His behavior and brashness hurt the sport for other black heavyweights well into the late 1920s. On the one hand I respect his courage for what he had to endure as a black HW champion during that era, but his antagonism and arrogance would have been more justified had he actually defended his titles against the best black fighters during their prime. For me that's where the legend is peeled back to expose a good but not great fighter. That footnote in history can be argued until our fingers bleed, but that's my opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent.

[Ivich]

No, you are employing a double standard. If you truly "won the argument" you wouldn't still be arguing.

You are entitled to your opinion.The point is Johnson had 4 wives the first of which,Mary Austin was BLACK. She was followed by Clara Kerr a common law wife so the argument that Johnson disliked black women and talked badly of them is BS.But you aren't interested in that are you?

[Ivich]

I found him to be the opposite. He was a good skillful fighter. But his best wins were against McVey who was 19/20 years old and had less than ten fights during each of their bouts. Jeannette who had less than 20 and already had some losses before fighting Jack. In fact, after 23 fights his record stood at 9-11-3. He was improving with each fight and fought Johnson to a tough draw in their last fight. Langford who was a small middleweight at the time and just 20 years old. Ketchel a middleweight, Fitzsimmons was washed up, Jeffries washed up after a six year retirement, Burns was much smaller. His first fight against Flynn. He also didn't lift the sport up. His behavior and brashness hurt the sport for other black heavyweights well into the late 1920s. On the one hand I respect his courage for what he had to endure as a black HW champion during that era, but his antagonism and arrogance would have been more justified had he actually defended his titles against the best black fighters during their prime. For me that's where the legend is peeled back to expose a good but not great fighter. That footnote in history can be argued until our fingers bleed, but that's my opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent.

You don't consider wins over
Frank Childs
Denver Ed Martin
Worth mentioning?
Yes Langford was a small middleweight at the time estimated at156lbs and Johnson estimated at185lbs.
,
Langford claimed he was 140lbs and Johnson 190lbs.He also claimed he knocked Johnson down and the fight was very close.
The Jeannette draw for which fight Jeannette claimed he only weighed 165lbs!

"The local paper called it a draw, though it also said Johnson was the cleverer boxer and ring general and slightly outclassed Jeannette". Research done by Adam Pollack. I'm not giving an opinion on the threads title.

[billeau2]

Good post ,except I think you'll find D'Amato was a Catholic. I don't go to fights anywhere as regularly as I used to,which was every month in the season,Back in those days UK boxing was run by ***s and a significant section of the audience would be ***ish.Black fighters were becoming more common and had their own rooting sections,the ***s among the crowd always referred to them as "Schwartzers"
.My first Wife was ***ish and her family were lovely people.

The excellent stage play and film, The Great White Hope,has a scene where Johnson is confronted by fellow blacks rooting for him,he tells them to," basically find their own way, and to stop feeding off of him.
I thought James Earl Jones was terrific as Johnson,I got to see him in Shakespeare's,
" Much Ado About Nothing," with Vanessa Redgrave at the Old Vic ,both were superb!
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Lol, My bad, I confused D'Amato with other members of Tyson's original management... In this country (America) there has come a divide where ***s and Blacks are at odds... And it is such a shame considering a generation or two ago how interwined the two communities were. Schwartzers is a term that in its original inception is deragatory for Blacks, but... Yiddish, which borrows so many words, reincorporated the word as more of a descriptive... the term literally means "Black." Famously Mel Brooks gave it a renaissance in "Blazing Saddles" when the Sheriff meets the Indians who speak Yiddish.

James Earl Jones, amazing actor indeed. I can only imagine how he would carry through in a Shakespearian production with his gravitas.

[billeau2]

I found him to be the opposite. He was a good skillful fighter. But his best wins were against McVey who was 19/20 years old and had less than ten fights during each of their bouts. Jeannette who had less than 20 and already had some losses before fighting Jack. In fact, after 23 fights his record stood at 9-11-3. He was improving with each fight and fought Johnson to a tough draw in their last fight. Langford who was a small middleweight at the time and just 20 years old. Ketchel a middleweight, Fitzsimmons was washed up, Jeffries washed up after a six year retirement, Burns was much smaller. His first fight against Flynn. He also didn't lift the sport up. His behavior and brashness hurt the sport for other black heavyweights well into the late 1920s. On the one hand I respect his courage for what he had to endure as a black HW champion during that era, but his antagonism and arrogance would have been more justified had he actually defended his titles against the best black fighters during their prime. For me that's where the legend is peeled back to expose a good but not great fighter. That footnote in history can be argued until our fingers bleed, but that's my opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent.

Ahhh the old "get them young" Roy Jones strategy!" (Maxwell smart voice). Any fighter that avoided Black fighters was doing what society wanted them to do, including Johnson. It is of course ironic, but it makes sense considering what happened with Willard... Society basically begrudged Johnson, but expected him to let the proper white hope that came along take the title back, and not hand it over to a fellow African. Jeffries couldn't do it... Although to me? the most remarkable thing about that fight is how Jeffries managed to get into fighting shape at all! I know accounts were no doubt exxagerated, but Jeffries was incredible stock! In some ways he might be the ultimate modern heavyweight...

[Ivich]

Ahhh the old "get them young" Roy Jones strategy!" (Maxwell smart voice). Any fighter that avoided Black fighters was doing what society wanted them to do, including Johnson. It is of course ironic, but it makes sense considering what happened with Willard... Society basically begrudged Johnson, but expected him to let the proper white hope that came along take the title back, and not hand it over to a fellow African. Jeffries couldn't do it... Although to me? the most remarkable thing about that fight is how Jeffries managed to get into fighting shape at all! I know accounts were no doubt exxagerated, but Jeffries was incredible stock! In some ways he might be the ultimate modern heavyweight...

"Jeffries was in very good shape ,he couldn't have taken that licking if he wasn't." Sam Langford

[Willie Pep 229]

Lol, My bad, I confused D'Amato with other members of Tyson's original management... In this country (America) there has come a divide where ***s and Blacks are at odds... And it is such a shame considering a generation or two ago how interwined the two communities were. Schwartzers is a term that in its original inception is deragatory for Blacks, but... Yiddish, which borrows so many words, reincorporated the word as more of a descriptive... the term literally means "Black." Famously Mel Brooks gave it a renaissance in "Blazing Saddles" when the Sheriff meets the Indians who speak Yiddish.

James Earl Jones, amazing actor indeed. I can only imagine how he would carry through in a Shakespearian production with his gravitas.

I think we need to blame the NOI for laying those seeds of distrust.

Civil Rights and Black Power came to odds in the 1960s.

[billeau2]

I think we need to blame the NOI for laying those seeds of distrust.

Civil Rights and Black Power came to odds in the 1960s.

It most certainly did... Divide and conquer... Oldest strategy in the book. How quickly were the ***s who fought against the Southern Bigots were forgotten... It is sad, most ***ish kids from the newer generations do not know the affinities that once existed.

[GhostofDempsey]

Ahhh the old "get them young" Roy Jones strategy!" (Maxwell smart voice). Any fighter that avoided Black fighters was doing what society wanted them to do, including Johnson. It is of course ironic, but it makes sense considering what happened with Willard... Society basically begrudged Johnson, but expected him to let the proper white hope that came along take the title back, and not hand it over to a fellow African. Jeffries couldn't do it... Although to me? the most remarkable thing about that fight is how Jeffries managed to get into fighting shape at all! I know accounts were no doubt exxagerated, but Jeffries was incredible stock! In some ways he might be the ultimate modern heavyweight...

It's a myth that every white man wanted Johnson to fail and would do anything to see to it that he failed. It was a white sheriff you entered the ring to disqualify Flynn for his dirty tactics against Johnson. White news reporters judged him fairly when they scored fights in his favor. While he did face an abundance of adversity, there were in fact a lot of fair and non-prejudiced whites who gave him his due respect.

The fans who celebrate the Jeffries win as some great conquest would laugh their asses off if a washed up former champ came off a six year retirement and had to lose close to 100 pounds to get in shape for the fight. No one gives credit to Hector Camacho defeating a washed up Ray Leonard after Leonard came out of a six year retirement. Speaking of Jones, no sane individual believes Danny Green or Lebedev were greater fighters than him because they KO'd a washed up version of Roy.

Johnson's resume is stacked with big names but doesn't provide the context of when he fought some of these opponents during their respective careers. Similar to Floyd, who never fought an elite level opponent at their best. When I consider a fighter "overrated" that doesn't imply he still cannot be a good or even great fighter. It just means they received more praise and adulation for their boxing prowess than deserved.