If Wills Had Fought And Beaten Dempsey In1922?

[Willie Pep 229]

To correct myself here is the purported reason for the names east and west New Jersey. I will assume this is correct and I am not.

In 1676 the province was divided into East and West Jersey, the former going to Sir George Carteret and the latter to a group of Friends (Quakers). The division continued until 1702, when the entire province reverted to the crown.

[Ivich]

You two have been at this for seven fucking years?

And I thought I had unhealthy hobbies.

No,13 years, and I am still waiting for all these verified offers that Johnson turned down.!
My hobbies are Music,Cinema and Books,followed by real ale!

[Willie Pep 229]

No,13 years, and I am still waiting for all these verified offers that Johnson turned down.!
My hobbies are Music,Cinema and Books,followed by real ale!

Actually just today while looking up the Johnson-Wills possibly I ran across two guys arguing on a forum (old posts) it was Mendoza and McVey and I burst out laughing when I realized I recognized the styles

[Ivich]

Why didn't they move the fight to another city in the USA! Or the UK or France? You won't answer this question! I think I know why. . IMO, Johnson signed when he knew fight would not happen there. . He did not sign articles before then. Months before when the fight was announced by McIntosh. He has the money to stage this fight elsewhere, if needed. Johnson used the NY commission same as Dempsey to avoid this match with Wills.

And a bigot likes you likes to repeat this.

END.

Johnson signed and posted a cash bond to defend against Jeannette, the promoters booked the venue and had bills advertising the fight printed ,so obviously they thought the fight would go ahead .

Why would you suppose Johnson would be privy to knowledge the promoters did not have?

If McIntosh thought other venues to promote these fights would be financially profitable,why did he not attempt to promote them?
How am I a bigot?

[travestyny]

What was the date? Why didn't this fight happen? Thanks.

This one is a bit more clear. It took place in 1921.

It didn't happen because states began barring Johnson from fighting.

[travestyny]

Likely 1921.

On August 8th 1921 Jack Johndon tried to test the political waters to see if he could get a fight in New Jersey.

He was scheduled for a three round exhibition with one Willie Jackson, in Atlantic City. Robert Dougherty of the NJ State Commission rejected the fight at the last minute. (AUGUST 9TH NYT)

Just in case New Jersey had any ideas about letting the fight happen, the City of Philadelphia's Director of Public Safety [need name] decided to place a little pressure on New Jersey by announcing that there would be no license available for a Johnson-Wills fight in the City of 'Brotherly Love.' (AUGUST 7TH NYT) **

The next day August 8th Dougherty (NJ) pulled the plug on the exhibition.

It looks as though this was just another one of those 'announced fights' just to see if they could garner support and find a venue.

Notice that the news blurp, announcing the possible fight, July 6th, came out of Leavenworth Kansas. (federal prison maybe)

My conjecture, Johnson was probably just making noise while still incarcerated and Wills probably had no knowledge of what Johnson was up to.

I doubt, but would like to know, if papers were signed or if a promoter stepped up. But my guess is that, that news blurp is just JJ making noise pending his release.

It is not suprising JJ would announced that he wants an immediate championship fight, even if it was only for the Negro Championship. As I was saying earlier, I can't see him taking anything less than a championship fight.

Does anyone know JJ's release date from prison?

Seems odd that he would be making this play in a Kansas newspaper if he was out of prison. But he is in NJ, ready to fight, by early August. So the dates must be close.

Either way he found out pretty quickly he was still going to be blocked out of the big venues, e.g. NY, PA, NJ.

** If you are wondering why I suggest that Philadelphia (PA) could possibly influence actions in New Jersey you need to understand that south Jersey was an economic suburb of Phily, while northern New Jersey an economic suburb of New York.

If you ever look at a map of colonial America you will see it labeled West and East New Jersey, that's because North Jersey is west of New York and South Jersey is east of Philadelphia. The influence was so strong that the regions' early names were based on their relationship to the two major cities. They use to call it 'the wilds of New Jersey.' Lol

Look at the articles I posted. He was still in prison and was lining up fights for when he got out. The fight was supposed to be in New York, then Jersey, and they looked into Philly. All of them barred Johnson. I think finally it was going to be in Denver and my guess is that they barred him as well.

[Willie Pep 229]

Re: The Johnson-Jeannette fight in New York.

It would have been very unlikely that any other State would have taken the fight.

The Jim Flynn fight in Las Vegas New Mexico took place because New Mexico became a new State in January of the year (1912).

Unlike the other States the anti-Johnson crowd (Yellow Dogs in Congress) had not been able to bully the new State like it had the others.

The mainly desert State of New Mexico was desperately in need of any revenue it could muster, and like so many others llocations thought, a HW Championship fight, would put them on the map.

The Las Vegas in New Mexico, was actually the first Las Vegas to be referred to as 'sin city.' (A term now commonly applied to the Nevada city.) It was known for its outlaws, bars, ********, and nightly brawls. And most importantly, not much swayed by federal laws.

When you look at the situation surrounding a Johnson-Jeannette fight outside of New York it doesn't seem doable.

Jeannette was a NY favorite, the City had a large population, and also a large Black population to help fill out the gate if needed.

New Mexico and most Western States probably wouldn't have been interested in an all Negro bout.

Only the northeastern cities were economically viable (IMO) and they were all closed to Johnson.

So to just say, 'that they could have moved the fight elsewhere' I don't think is a valid argument.

In regards to Europe . . .

1. I don't think JJ actually wanted to leave the States.

2. The numbers ($) coming out of Great Britian always seemed a little low to me and I'm not sure if those British boxing clubs (circa 1910s) could actually have afforded to buy a HW Championship fight.

3. We don't know if McIntosh [SIC] was even interested in a non-New York fight. It may well have been them (Jeannette and McIntosh) who refused to travel. We really din't know.

In regards to JJ's true commitment to the fight we may never be able to truly ascertain, but my guess is, if the money was right Johnson would have taken the fight.

But I also believe, once in France (convicted and in exile) Johnson probably did duck Langford and Jeannette. I can see where Johnson would have felt very uncertain about his future and realized losing the title at that point would leave him destitute. So he picked his fights accordingly, fights he new he wouldn't lose.

But again, I believe that uncertainty was post conviction and exile.

[Dr. Z]

Johnson signed and posted a cash bond to defend against Jeannette, the promoters booked the venue and had bills advertising the fight printed ,so obviously they thought the fight would go ahead .

Why would you suppose Johnson would be privy to knowledge the promoters did not have?

If McIntosh thought other venues to promote these fights would be financially profitable,why did he not attempt to promote them?
How am I a bigot?

The promoters did not move this fight! How come? IMO Johnson did not want the fight! He could have fought elsewhere.

I am not going to make a thread about you. You have had the mods halt enough if your threads here.

[travestyny]

The promoters did not move this fight! How come? IMO Johnson did not want the fight! He could have fought elsewhere.

I am not going to make a thread about you. You have had the mods halt enough if your threads here.

The guy has been asking you to post up the offers for a long time. Why don't you simply answer his question so that you guys can move the conversation along instead of ignoring it? Or if you don't have proof of the offers, why not just admit that? He has provided solid evidence backing up his side of the argument but every time he asks you to do the same nothing comes back.

[Dr. Z]

The guy has been asking you to post up the offers for a long time. Why don't you simply answer his question so that you guys can move the conversation along instead of ignoring it? Or if you don't have proof of the offers, why not just admit that? He has provided solid evidence backing up his side of the argument but every time he asks you to do the same nothing comes back.

What, Johnson had several offer to fight Langford, Jeannette, and McVey. $30,000 to $50 ,000. Use the internet. You are totally cable of finding examples. Johnson could fight in France or the UK with no problem. He could fight in Las Vegas, USA with no problems. Move the fights here. Johnson even pulled out of a signed contact to fight Sam Langford! He did not want to fight them as Champion, period.

Now having said that who do you like in the fowling matches?

Johnson vs. Langford 1913

Johnson vs. Jeannete 1914

Johnson vs. Wills 1915

Johnson vs. Mcvey 1916

Thank You.

IMO he ducked them all from 1908-1916. A champion to me is mostly defined by who they beat, and how they beat them.