If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

[joseph5620]

Really, "checkmate" ? How come your susposed insightful self didn't ask whom Frank Flournoy worked for?

Not Wills! Unless ofcourse he held a silent percentage of Wiils' contract. But being promoter for MSG he probably shouldn't have.

You got duped once more by and un-cited, undated, edited news article.

And then you said something as ****** as '"checkmate."

Yes, checkmate. Trav provided documentation that clearly refuted what you said. So far you've provided nothing but your theories and opinions. Facts shut all of that down quickly.

[GhostofDempsey]

Kearns offered Wills sparring jobs with Dempsey while he was training for Willard and later fights. He also offered Wills $5K if he could knock out Dempsey in sparring, Wills of course declined. Any of the opportunities offered to him to spar Dempsey would have been a golden opportunity to show him up and gain publicity for himself. I don’t think Wills was confident he could beat Dempsey. Langford, McVey, Tate, Jamaica Kid, Battling Ghee, a majority of trainers, managers, promoters, and media didn’t think Wills could beat Dempsey. They felt he deserved a shot at the title but that he wasn’t equipped to beat him.

[travestyny]

Jeannette would have been a bigger money fight. Not a charity exhibition. It was a publicity stunt that he keeps using as some pathetic attempt at smearing Dempsey, as if he would actually duck fight with Jeannette at any age, let alone 40. Jack Johnson refused to fight any of them for the title, had any one of them entered the ring in place of Kaufman or Ketchel they would have been shown the door.

We all know 1925 was a simple matter of front end money not being delivered as promised. Bad checks and a waste of Dempsey’s time was using his name for relevance. In ‘24 Wills goes 12 rounds with Firpo who Dempsey KO’d in 2 a couple years earlier. In 1925/26 Wills hadn’t fought or beaten anyone making him worthy of a title shot. In ‘25 Wills was ducking Godfrey, Dempsey’s sparring partner, who was the most deserving black fighter for a shot at his World Colored HW title.

Everything you said here are lies that have been proven lies.

Jack Johnson accepted a fight with Jeannette for the title. This was proven to be fact.
Johnson fought Langford in a 9 minute exhibition that turned into a brawl at a theater in Boston to raise funds for Earthquake victims.

So you might be barking up the wrong tree there.


There was a certified check waiting for Dempsey to accept for Wills. Dempsey ran away. This has been revealed here ad nauseam.

[travestyny]

I just want to make sure this is on the current page because I think it's important for your argument, Willie Pep 229

I can help you find the answers if you need help. Let me know what you learn.

I need some clarification. Can you please just answer the questions without any excess fat?


The events we are talking about took place in 1922.

Who promoted the Dempsey Firpo fight in 1923? And who was Dempsey's manager at the time?

[GhostofDempsey]

Jeannette also acknowledged Dempsey was railroaded. Jeannette told the Hudson Dispatch on Nov 18th, 1918 that he had been misled into believing Dempsey had agreed to the match and didn’t realize Dempsey was being framed. When Joe asked Jack about the fight he said it was up to his manager. Dan Morgan and McKetrick were behind the stunt, paying Bonds $100 to fake an injury. The only disgrace that night was McKetrick who used a war bond fund raising match for his own personal gain and publicity. Kid Norfolk was scheduled as Jeannette’s opponent that night but was waived off for this frame job. Kearns saw what was happening and refused to take the bait.

Looking back, a 20 year old middleweight version of Carpentier went a close 15 rounds with a prime and larger Jeannette in 1914. Even knocking Joe down for a 9-count in the first round. A lot of people thought Georges did enough to win. By 1920, Jeannette was a sparring partner for Carpentier and was getting knocked down by Georges in their workouts. Dempsey made easy work of a prime Carpentier. By 1918 Joe’s best years were behind him. Some members of the press were grateful the match didn’t go on, convinced Jeannette would have taken a one-sided beating. The NY Tribune wrote “…Jeannette hit the down grade years ago…it would have been a pity and a shame to allow a real battle between the two given where Jeannette was in his career.”

Dempsey had fought at least two black fighters early on in his pro career, and hired many black fighters as sparring partners. Wills turned down a $5K offer to knock Dempsey out in sparring and declined. Dempsey didn’t draw the color line and he certainly wasn’t afraid of them. This is more buffoonery by the chief buffoon of boxing scene.

[travestyny]

Jeannette also acknowledged Dempsey was railroaded. Jeannette told the Hudson Dispatch on Nov 18th, 1918 that he had been misled into believing Dempsey had agreed to the match and didn’t realize Dempsey was being framed. When Joe asked Jack about the fight he said it was up to his manager. Dan Morgan and McKetrick were behind the stunt, paying Bonds $100 to fake an injury. The only disgrace that night was McKetrick who used a war bond fund raising match for his own personal gain and publicity. Kid Norfolk was scheduled as Jeannette’s opponent that night but was waived off for this frame job. Kearns saw what was happening and refused to take the bait.

Looking back, a 20 year old middleweight version of Carpentier went a close 15 rounds with a prime and larger Jeannette in 1914. Even knocking Joe down for a 9-count in the first round. A lot of people thought Georges did enough to win. By 1920, Jeannette was a sparring partner for Carpentier and was getting knocked down by Georges in their workouts. Dempsey made easy work of a prime Carpentier. By 1918 Joe’s best years were behind him. Some members of the press were grateful the match didn’t go on, convinced Jeannette would have taken a one-sided beating. The NY Tribune wrote “…Jeannette hit the down grade years ago…it would have been a pity and a shame to allow a real battle between the two given where Jeannette was in his career.”

Dempsey had fought at least two black fighters early on in his pro career, and hired many black fighters as sparring partners. Wills turned down a $5K offer to knock Dempsey out in sparring and declined. Dempsey didn’t draw the color line and he certainly wasn’t afraid of them. This is more buffoonery by the chief buffoon of boxing scene.

You claiming Dempsey never drew the color line? He certainly did. Twice.

He didn't want to fight another Black boxer since John Lester broke 3 of his ribs. He made it clear he refused Jeannette because he is Black.


And your post about Jeannette being past it is useless. We already knew he was past it. The past it version of Jeannette even is what Dempsey wanted no part of. But he wanted 2 White men instead of past it Joe Jeannette....until 2 White men stepped up and suddenly he didn't want that either

[Willie Pep 229]

I need some clarification. Can you please just answer the questions without any excess fat?


The events we are talking about took place in 1922.

Who promoted the Dempsey Firpo fight in 1923? And who was Dempsey's manager at the time?

Dempsey was still manged by Kearns in '23 (and would until Janurary of '26,) but he, Dempsey, was already breaking away from Kearns and siding with Rickard after the fiasco in Shelby.

Rickard got Dempsey the 500K he wanted and then he paid the money directly to Dempsey and not Kearns.

Dempsey then paid Kearns his share but held back money he believed Kearns owed him.

Then the lawsuits began. At one point Kearns had Dempsey's wife's car impounded trying to get more money out of Dempsey. It didn't work.

Yes, Kearns was the manager of record for the Firpo fight but Dempsey was in the process of cutting Kearns loose.

I never said Dempsey had problem with Rickard it was always Kearns, and Dempsey was done with Kearns.

Kearns could see after Carpentier that Rickard was going "Don King" on him and wanted Dempsey.

Three days before the Shelby fight (I know you know because you even mentioned this) Kearns told Dempsey they don't have the rest of the guarantee the fight is off. (Screwing up the possible gate evenmore.)

Dempsey replied, 'its OK Doc you go back to New York. I'm going yo stay and fight Gibbons.'

To my mine that conversation was the end of Kearns-Dempsey.

From there Dempsey ran to the one guy who made good on his promises, Rickard.

• 1921 Kearns left 170K on the table because he negotiated poorly with Rickard.
• 1921-1923 Kearns left Dempsey without a fight for two solid years. His biggest money making years.
• 1923 Kearns braggs for two years about Dempsey costing 500K and delievers a mere 240K once, in two years.

YES! TO YOUR ATTEMPTED TRAP QUESTION. THE ANSWER IS YES!

Kearns was the manager of record and yes Kearns then had no choice but to deal with Rickard.

For two solid years Kearns had the biggest cash cow in boxing history, up that point, and he made a mere 240K in two years.

Firpo fight: Dempsey was in the process of pushing Kearns out of the picture.

Have you ever heard a good word between Dempsey and Kearns after the Firpo fight?

But I guess to you this is all "fat" - no doubt it doesn't fit your agenda.

That's your trap question for today.

[Willie Pep 229]

Yes, checkmate. Trav provided documentation that clearly refuted what you said. So far you've provided nothing but your theories and opinions. Facts shut all of that down quickly.

Silly man speaking in forum cliches.

[Willie Pep 229]

He claimed it was Kearns fault. It's indeed fair to state when Kearns was fired, Dempsey still did not make this fight. Or what am I missing?


Why wouldn't Montreal be for real? Of course it was Dempsey's fault. They offered him the fight and he declined saying he couldn't get in shape. They said they would push it back, he still declined. How can it not be his fault?

On this you're not missing anything except it's not relative to this debate.

Much was different in 1925 and we both know what the other guy thinks about that.

[travestyny]

Dempsey was still manged by Kearns in '23 (and would until Janurary of '26,) but he, Dempsey, was already breaking away from Kearns and siding with Rickard after the fiasco in Shelby.

Rickard got Dempsey the 500K he wanted and then he paid the money directly to Dempsey and not Kearns.

Dempsey then paid Kearns his share but held back money he believed Kearns owed him.

Then the lawsuits began. At one point Kearns had Dempsey's wife's car impounded trying to get more money out of Dempsey. It didn't work.

Yes, Kearns was the manager of record for the Firpo fight but Dempsey was in the process of cutting Kearns loose.

I never said Dempsey had problem with Rickard it was always Kearns, and Dempsey was done with Kearns.

Kearns could see after Carpentier that Rickard was going "Don King" on him and wanted Dempsey.

Three days before the Shelby fight (I know you know because you even mentioned this) Kearns told Dempsey they don't have the rest of the guarantee the fight is off. (Screwing up the possible gate evenmore.)

Dempsey replied, 'its OK Doc you go back to New York. I'm going yo stay and fight Gibbons.'

To my mine that conversation was the end of Kearns-Dempsey.

From there Dempsey ran to the one guy who made good on his promises, Rickard.

• 1921 Kearns left 170K on the table because he negotiated poorly with Rickard.
• 1921-1923 Kearns left Dempsey without a fight for two solid years. His biggest money making years.
• 1923 Kearns braggs for two years about Dempsey costing 500K and delievers a mere 240K once, in two years.

YES! TO YOUR ATTEMPTED TRAP QUESTION. THE ANSWER IS YES!

Kearns was the manager of record and yes Kearns then had no choice but to deal with Rickard.

For two solid years Kearns had the biggest cash cow in boxing history, up that point, and he made a mere 240K in two years.

Firpo fight: Dempsey was in the process of pushing Kearns out of the picture.

Have you ever heard a good word between Dempsey and Kearns after the Firpo fight?

But I guess to you this is all "fat" - no doubt it doesn't fit your agenda.

That's your trap question for today.

Ohh. So in 1922 Kearns had a huge issue with Rickard and wanted no part of him at all.

But they were working together in 1923.

I think I proved my point