The Toney Jirov fight... lets remember these great fights

[billeau2]

There would a plethora of examples there.

Barry Bonds performance improved drastically on PED’s because that’s what PED’s do, they enhance your athletic performance.

James Toney popped for Winstrol which is typically used as a cutting agent. Meaning he likely was using it as a weight cutting agent whilst also maintaining or even increasing his athletic performance whilst doing so. It also aids in recovery, meaning you can train at a more intense rate with substantially less recovery time. That is a massive advantage for any athlete especially in the sport such as boxing. This isn’t even arguable.

You’ve mentioned bulking there but boxers aren’t going to use PED’s for that reason. A boxer is going to use PED’s to increase their performance. PED’s and increasing muscle size don’t run parallel which each other. A boxer’s use of PED’s and a bodybuilders use of PED’s for example are going to be night and day different, including the style of training. Using PED’s doesn’t automatically mean you are going to bulk up your muscles.

You’ve said there that “it hard to imagine the mechanism of steroids creating more speed and endurance”. That is not hard to imagine at all, it’s quite the opposite actually.

Cutting weight and healing I agree. I concede those points. Where it gets tricky is where we can look at a great hitter like Ted Williams. It was said that a fastball looked like a g****fruit to him, and his wrists had been conditioned from swinging a saber around since being a kid... Anything that made him able to bring the bat around faster... stronger lats, tricepts, etc would have a direct cause and effect relationship on his swing and God only knows what he would have been able to do.

What specifically does a boxer do, that is aided by steroids? A Body Builder getting stronger means lifting more weight. Keep in mind that I do concede that cutting weight and healing are helped by steroid use, including for a boxer.

[billeau2]

Of course it is positive from an athletic performance standpoint. That’s the whole point. You are taking a compound that is giving you unnatural levels of performance, meaning in regards to recovery you recover drastically quicker than you would without them. Hence why it’s banned.

The main benefit of steroids is not muscle mass. You are equating “steroids” to Mr Olympia and thinking that’s how it works, it’s not.

There are numerous different compounds that serve different purposes. Someone like Mo Farah for example who has been suspected of being on PED’s would not be gaining substantial muscle mass at all, if any. But he is drastically improving his a athletic capabilities.

Lance Armstrong another example, of a career PED user who’s not gaining substantial muscle mass.

I don’t mean to come off as rude at all here, but you aren’t educated on this topic. If you want to learn about it we can talk as I do throughly enjoy this topic as someone who has been involved with PED’s for a long time, but in regards to what you’ve said here you are way way way off.

Ok this post gets into my second point: Lets talk about Healing, and cutting weight: Both are helped by steroids universally, I agree. Would it be so horrible to let people Heal and cut weight progressively? Level the playing field this way means that what a typical doctor would do to help a person achieve results would be available to athletes... and if an athlete does not need to heal quickly, or cut weight... it wouldn't matter.

Regarding "what Steroids are" this gets difficult. There are many enhancement methods, and as we can see the ability to distinguish steroids from a whole host of other compounds is very difficult. Correct me if I am wrong but steroids can act (like Vitamins) as a catalyst, as a booster to the production of organic compounds usually produced at specific times/in smaller numbers, by the human body, etc. Victor Conte was originally a cutting edge nutritionist, he had special machines that could find trace elements way beyond the scope of most labs... At a certain point therapies with these various substances will produce carbon compounds, that we call steroidal. So while a steroid is a specific lipidal molecule, it occurs naturally and as a consequence of many other types of nutritional enhancement therapies.

Armstrong Blood doped... This was a major way he could function with better oxygenated blood in his system... This is a perfect example of how these categories are not yet clearly articulated... If Armstrong takes foreign blood, and puts it in his body, is that the same as an athlete who increases testosterone and in order to do so uses a steroidal compound? And is that the same as an athlete who uses a steroid to directly acquire strength in an event based on the gaining of strength? amdmis that the same as an athlete who uses a steroid to heal, cut weight so they can be at their optimum level?

Dan, I have no problem being wrong, or learning about something... Im presenting you with what I consider valid points. I think if you read this post you will realize that I don't think steroids just make strength... On the contrary, I think what we call "steroids" are a lot of different biochemical reactions, catalysts, and enhancements. And I think some of them are more ethically valid than others.

[IronDanHamza]

Cutting weight and healing I agree. I concede those points. Where it gets tricky is where we can look at a great hitter like Ted Williams. It was said that a fastball looked like a g****fruit to him, and his wrists had been conditioned from swinging a saber around since being a kid... Anything that made him able to bring the bat around faster... stronger lats, tricepts, etc would have a direct cause and effect relationship on his swing and God only knows what he would have been able to do.

What specifically does a boxer do, that is aided by steroids? A Body Builder getting stronger means lifting more weight. Keep in mind that I do concede that cutting weight and healing are helped by steroid use, including for a boxer.

Well bodybuilding (something I also have a great passion for like I do boxing) is solely aesthetic. They train solely to build muscle mass, then refine it. Which yes in my opinion is the most effective way to use PED’s (the reason I used/use them)

But PED’s compounds are vast, that serve different purposes, also the style of training will bring different results despite using the same compoun. For example a bodybuilder using Winstrol won’t be serving the same purpose that it did when Toney was using Winstrol, albeit the same compound and the same end goal (a cutting agent predominately)

So as an example a bodybuilder training for the Olympia and a boxer training for a world title fight could well be using the same compound hypothetically, but the style of training will be totally different. A boxer will be using the PED to enhance their sport specific performance unlike a body builder who is training solely to gain aesthetic muscle.


Another example, Canelo popped for Clenbutrol, which in my opinion is by far the best cutting agent on the market, to me it’s a miracle drug. And I have used every compound you could possibly use. It literally melts body fat off your body whilst increasing physical performance, for a plethora or reasons that I elaborate on how the compound works specifically, but more to the point where as I’m going off on a tangent but for someone who struggles to cut weight like Canelo the use of that drug will not only make the weight cut incredibly easier it will do so whilst increasing strength, speed, essentially all athletic performance.

For a boxer, the PED’s they are going to use for the most part are compounds that will increase stamina; EPO as a prime example which Shane Mosley admitting to taking in the early 00’s. But almost any compound can be used to make a substantial increase in performance, even just 1ML of Testerone a week (which is a cruise dose) will increase performance from every aspect, just for the simple fact that the athlete will have elevated test, that means that they will be stronger, quicker, more explosive, recovery time will be much quicker meaning more training sessions at higher intensity etc.

[billeau2]

There would a plethora of examples there.

Barry Bonds performance improved drastically on PED’s because that’s what PED’s do, they enhance your athletic performance.

James Toney popped for Winstrol which is typically used as a cutting agent. Meaning he likely was using it as a weight cutting agent whilst also maintaining or even increasing his athletic performance whilst doing so. It also aids in recovery, meaning you can train at a more intense rate with substantially less recovery time. That is a massive advantage for any athlete especially in the sport such as boxing. This isn’t even arguable.

You’ve mentioned bulking there but boxers aren’t going to use PED’s for that reason. A boxer is going to use PED’s to increase their performance. PED’s and increasing muscle size don’t run parallel which each other. A boxer’s use of PED’s and a bodybuilders use of PED’s for example are going to be night and day different, including the style of training. Using PED’s doesn’t automatically mean you are going to bulk up your muscles.

You’ve said there that “it hard to imagine the mechanism of steroids creating more speed and endurance”. That is not hard to imagine at all, it’s quite the opposite actually.

Ok Being able to heal quickly, and maintaining an optimum weight... would that not help one train at a higher intensity? Any athlete wants the ability to do this... It is universal and agreed, as I conceded... this helps any athlete.

Barry Bonds was an average hitter before he met Victor Conte and juiced...So what happened? For you Cricketeers When you hit a baseball the ability to hit it well involves a lot, but a major issue is how fast one can whip the bat around. Getting stronger, directly effects that process. In addition to universal attributes of steroids that help any athlete, there is a direct causal relationship between hitting a baseball and the strength with which one can swing the bat.

A boxer wanting to punch harder? Getting stronger, bigger does not directly effect punching power. The way steroids help a fighter is universally, with no direct cause and effect to skill sets in the ring, that is my point. I know the steroids help, but the way they help IMO is important because, we can start to question how many things involve steroids that help an athlete heal faster, etc.. and if it might be better to level the playing field by allowing things that normal people have access to medically.

[IronDanHamza]

Ok this post gets into my second point: Lets talk about Healing, and cutting weight: Both are helped by steroids universally, I agree. Would it be so horrible to let people Heal and cut weight progressively? Level the playing field this way means that what a typical doctor would do to help a person achieve results would be available to athletes... and if an athlete does not need to heal quickly, or cut weight... it wouldn't matter.

Regarding "what Steroids are" this gets difficult. There are many enhancement methods, and as we can see the ability to distinguish steroids from a whole host of other compounds is very difficult. Correct me if I am wrong but steroids can act (like Vitamins) as a catalyst, as a booster to the production of organic compounds usually produced at specific times/in smaller numbers, by the human body, etc. Victor Conte was originally a cutting edge nutritionist, he had special machines that could find trace elements way beyond the scope of most labs... At a certain point therapies with these various substances will produce carbon compounds, that we call steroidal. So while a steroid is a specific lipidal molecule, it occurs naturally and as a consequence of many other types of nutritional enhancement therapies.

Armstrong Blood doped... This was a major way he could function with better oxygenated blood in his system... This is a perfect example of how these categories are not yet clearly articulated... If Armstrong takes foreign blood, and puts it in his body, is that the same as an athlete who increases testosterone and in order to do so uses a steroidal compound? And is that the same as an athlete who uses a steroid to directly acquire strength in an event based on the gaining of strength? amdmis that the same as an athlete who uses a steroid to heal, cut weight so they can be at their optimum level?

Dan, I have no problem being wrong, or learning about something... Im presenting you with what I consider valid points. I think if you read this post you will realize that I don't think steroids just make strength... On the contrary, I think what we call "steroids" are a lot of different biochemical reactions, catalysts, and enhancements. And I think some of them are more ethically valid than others.

No by all means this is a good convo and you are making valid points and asking good questions.

I personally don’t disagree with you about the benefits of it (recovery time). If I had my choice I’d make PED’s legal to fight with. I think they’re great, I use them, of course there’s health risks, but that’s a personal choice.

But the issue is it’s banned, so a fighter using them gives them an unfair advantage to one who isn’t. That’s where the issue lies.

You are **** on again, “what steroids are� is very complex. There are a plethora of compounds that serve different purposes, and even the same compound can have different results depending on sport specific training. But what they all do, in mass, is enhance performance.

Blood doping is another form of a PED essentially, boxers have used it in the past also, and certainly increases performance ten fold.

There is a big reason PED’s are rife in sports, including boxing and MMA, because they are very effective.

[billeau2]

No by all means this is a good convo and you are making valid points and asking good questions.

I personally donât disagree with you about the benefits of it (recovery time). If I had my choice Iâd make PEDâs legal to fight with. I think theyâre great, I use them, of course thereâs health risks, but thatâs a personal choice.

But the issue is itâs banned, so a fighter using them gives them an unfair advantage to one who isnât. Thatâs where the issue lies.

You are **** on again, âwhat steroids areâ is very complex. There are a plethora of compounds that serve different purposes, and even the same compound can have different results depending on sport specific training. But what they all do, in mass, is enhance performance.

Blood doping is another form of a PED essentially, boxers have used it in the past also, and certainly increases performance ten fold.

There is a big reason PEDâs are rife in sports, including boxing and MMA, because they are very effective.

I agree with this post entirely. It is ironic that something is banned by virtue of being "effective." Kind of the world we live in lol.

[tokon]

Its a complex issue... My own feeling? If you think about what the value of life itself is, and lets say you give it a value of sorts, compare that to making sacrifices for glory... Lets first keep it basic: I will even use myself as an example, I studied karate for years, at a certain point it became apparent, with two concussions, broken fingers, etc that if i wanted to continue, my older days would suffer. I had a choice... I once met a man who never did much of anything and lived to be a healthy 99, is that what I wanted?

Now, lets take a professional fighter/athlete . Is the value of life such that one should not box, play football, etc? Luckily we do not have to make that decision, we can all make up our own minds... When I was not married with no kids, I decided running into crack dens in the Tenderloin hood with 15 year old Guardian Angel recruits, was ok... When I had kids, I stopped. No one had to tell me, I made a decision, and so does any athlete. Do you want mortality in all its glory? To live a boring life perhaps, but be healthy for all of it? Assuming there is a trade off, which we are doing for purposes of post. Bare with me Tokon...

Lets extend our thinking to chemical enhancements. We now try to ban them, then we look at individual circumstances and decide about whether it was egregious, more egregious... Toney was alleged to take a prescribed steriod used for healing injury, Holyfield, for example was alleged to be on a sophisticated program led by a nutrition steriod expert... Now first off? lets distinguish something: margarito using cement hand wraps? the practice of enhancing gloves, shoes, hands, wrappings, WE should be able to moniter that and the slippery slope looms large: You can't allow hardened hand wraps or the next guy could bring a mace into the ring lol, so to speak... Point is, we can not only moniter these activities relatively easily, but the implications are bad: hard materials in the gloves will kill the opponent, the risk is primarily your opponent's in fact.

What if with steriods, we levelled the field and simply said "you can enhance as you wish with chemical means that are geared towards enhancements. No drugs like Amphetamines, etc... NOw two things happen: I assume the risk of using the steriods, the opponent has the same potential resources I have. As things stand now WE HAVE NO IDEA how many and how much chemical enhancements boxers go through.

Steriods are a part of the training environment. They do not only build muscle but, for a certain amount of risk, help older athletes heal faster, and there is no conclusive proof that steriods help performance as a whole, only that they enhance certain short comings in an athlete.
Steriods are actually similar to other substances that are nutritional. There is a fine distinction, so even if we wanted to police them more carefully, we could still potentially level the playing field.

Thanks Bill but, excuse my ******ity, I don't get the point you're trying to make here.

Toney was juicing once he moved up from 168 imo not just that bullschit story about the injury prescription.

[billeau2]

Thanks Bill but, excuse my ******ity, I don't get the point you're trying to make here.

Toney was juicing once he moved up from 168 imo not just that bullschit story about the injury prescription.

No ******ity at all... It just happens to be a complex issue because of two things and... let me just say, I am not excusing ay fighter, including Toney, just trying to hope that the future can bring better process to how we look at training, training technologies and (as a side note) the judging process in boxing which is corrupt.

What are called steroids are a whole plethora of substances that have many different effects on an athlete, or anybody. Lets start with "anybody" because if a person goes to a doctor to heal an injury, many times steroids are prescribed. So right off the bat, some steroids are not allowed to be used when an athlete is aging, or needs to heal from an injury. lets ask if this is ethical: as an athlete you have one career, should you e denied the best medicine? or might it be more fair to let everybody use chemicals that heal to level the playing field? The complexity comes with at least a few issues, and Dan is more qualified to speak to these... If I give an athlete something to heal, or cut weight, does it give him/her other advantages?

This issue shows itself again with things like nutrition. At some level steroids are a natural occuring catalyst like Vitamins, they are produced in our bodies, as part of nutrition they are a way of optimizing nutritional efficacy, in addition to other substances. If we let a transgender compete in a woman's division... how much more, or less is it an advantage letting athletes optimize nutritional substances? I mean, letting an athlete take a steroid that will help his knee heal, versus letting karen, who was Paul and still has the muscle mass of Paul compete against other biological females.

The last point is particularly tricky... But there are steroids that when used in a sport, have a direct effect on a quality that is a vital advantage for an athlete: Lance Armstrong blood doping gave him an incredible, direct advantage because it allowed him oxygen in abundance to exert himself more during a race where this quality was vital to winning. If you and I are riding uphill, and lactic acid is breaking down our muscles, more oxygen allows me to clear my muscles and exert more. This is as compared to when a steroid enhances indirect aspects like healing, recovery which are general qualities. I see a difference between training to maximize healing, strength, and recovery (for example) and using Steroids that make one gain more muscle mass, to do a power lift (see example of Armstrong).

I think we have to revisit the issue of how to deal with fairness and optimal training parameters... Not an easy issue at all... for example, what if i want to compete in an event and do not want the risks associated with steroids (which are misunderstood and often not as great as the media portrays!) and steroids are allowed... I have to take somethng to be competative, am I being coerced to a point where I am forced to take the same substances as my competitors? is this fair?... another example of this would be I have a bombshell of a wife who is a great athlete. Transgender women come in with strength of a man and she tells me "honey we love each other and I know you will support me, but to compete against these shmails, I need to get male enhancements. No big deal, if you feel some hair on my legs, I lose my breasts, and my voice gets deep, and I need your shaver for my beard now and then."

I am suggesting that we revisit the problem and maybe figure out what we consider competition versus handicapping. These ideas/ examples show how being short sided only gets us so far. I also would like to go on record as being against allowing transathletes to compete in the same division as those biologically determined. HOpe this helps!

[kara]

Hes bad lol! I miss guys like Bobby Chaz, who knew the sport and had a great intellect and ability to share it with others... at least before he fought Holyfield lol.

If only Czyz stayed off the booze.

[tokon]

Ok this post gets into my second point: Lets talk about Healing, and cutting weight: Both are helped by steroids universally, I agree. Would it be so horrible to let people Heal and cut weight progressively? Level the playing field this way means that what a typical doctor would do to help a person achieve results would be available to athletes... and if an athlete does not need to heal quickly, or cut weight... it wouldn't matter.

Regarding "what Steroids are" this gets difficult. There are many enhancement methods, and as we can see the ability to distinguish steroids from a whole host of other compounds is very difficult. Correct me if I am wrong but steroids can act (like Vitamins) as a catalyst, as a booster to the production of organic compounds usually produced at specific times/in smaller numbers, by the human body, etc. Victor Conte was originally a cutting edge nutritionist, he had special machines that could find trace elements way beyond the scope of most labs... At a certain point therapies with these various substances will produce carbon compounds, that we call steroidal. So while a steroid is a specific lipidal molecule, it occurs naturally and as a consequence of many other types of nutritional enhancement therapies.

Armstrong Blood doped... This was a major way he could function with better oxygenated blood in his system... This is a perfect example of how these categories are not yet clearly articulated... If Armstrong takes foreign blood, and puts it in his body, is that the same as an athlete who increases testosterone and in order to do so uses a steroidal compound? And is that the same as an athlete who uses a steroid to directly acquire strength in an event based on the gaining of strength? amdmis that the same as an athlete who uses a steroid to heal, cut weight so they can be at their optimum level?

Dan, I have no problem being wrong, or learning about something... Im presenting you with what I consider valid points. I think if you read this post you will realize that I don't think steroids just make strength... On the contrary, I think what we call "steroids" are a lot of different biochemical reactions, catalysts, and enhancements. And I think some of them are more ethically valid than others.

Bill, with respect, as I really enjoy your posts, I don't think you understand the use and effects of anabolic steroids as well as Dan.

Btw, as well as epo, Armstrong also used steroids/testosterone for performance enhancement (IE not bulking).

Interesting debate, thanks.