We all thought (for about a year or so) that Livingstone Bramble could be an ATG.
True enough. But that happens to us frequently in boxing. A man could make a separate thread on guys who were supposed to be well on their way to almost certain ATG status (at least according to millions of fans) when the stitches of their legacy suddenly burst. Usually they get beaten by someone we didn't even think that highly of, they get themselves exposed and exposed good. This could apply to more fighters than a man could reasonably list. Here are a few at random:
Great thread! Its an interesting question and as it pertains particularly to boxing makes it unique compared to other sports. In boxing there seems to be a general consensus that HOF does not mean much. The real conversation about greatness revolves around the ATG nomination. This category is debated time and time again, as it should be. The dialectic of greatness in boxing is fascinating and generally the more history receeds the more an individual is guaranteed to get a fair shake when their name comes up for discussion as an ATG.
For example, look at many black Fighters, many not well known, guys like Godfrey, C.C Smith. To be a Black fighter when the color line existed meant having to fight many fellow skilled fighters many times. So where Dempsey might be able to get away with fighting Tunney twice, many Black fighters had to fight a great opponent 3,4,5, or more times. This produced records where guys wins and losses seemed more spread out, kind of like how guys win and lose in MMA today. Like the fighters were more evenly matched. So how do we evaluate these guys? compared to the White fighters who fought each other sparingly?
To me fighters that were almost ATG fighters often are fighters we just do not know enough about, but we know they were highly regarded... Guys like Joe Choyinsky, Harry Wills, etc. To me, an almost ATG should be an ATG but for uncertainty.
Very thoughtful letter. Good observations on the color line and on MMA records.
To me fighters that were almost ATG fighters often are fighters we just do not know enough about, but we know they were highly regarded... Guys like Joe Choyinsky, Harry Wills, etc. To me, an almost ATG should be an ATG but for uncertainty.
Like you said, often theyare, that's for sure. But then there are those we had plenty of chance to observe and did, who are nonetheless "almost ATGs," according to many. Juan Manuel Marquez might be such a fighter for me. And his failure to qualify might be more a product of who he didn't get to fight than who he did, just the color line boys.
- - Many if not most of my contributions here are scientifically based on fighter timelines and results. Drives the typical lowbrows bonkers.
You have to show some of those massive calculations sometime, lest people assume you just got carried away being colorful and hyperbolic. A man just can't beat calculations! And of course they must be lay-appropriate.
P.S. The shorter gentleman in my avatar is 6'5" tall!
That’s a good and thought provoking question there.
Being an ATG is of course an opinion, there isn’t a set criteria. Most usually consider the Top 100 ATG list as exclusively for ATG fighters. But that will of course expand over time.
And you make another good point, there are fighters who looked “great” but aren’t great, or had “great”
potential. I think Reggie Johnson “looked great” in some of his fights, his problem has he only looked great for very short spells. Like for the first 6 rounds vs James Toney, or for 3 rounds against Steve Collins. His problem has he couldn’t maintain it, thus lost fight he should have won dominantly (Toney) amongst others.
Another one might be Terry Norris He looked like a as shoo-in for at leas t near-@greatnessright up until the moment his chin got exposed and exposed good. Kid had talent to spare. But you are born with a beard. You can't grow one.
For anyone who has taught AP history, and gone on to do the reading, you are aware of them giving you examples to read over and then grade as a whole at your table. Then adjusting your scores to match what the heads have marked. They do this over and over to establish a primer of sort. I think that would be beneficial to this discussion, for though we may not all rank each fighter the same, having a primer as to where we define ATG could help in the communication.
As such, I thought of a list of several, more recent fighters who are probably along the line of, or at least would help establish where that line is. All are well known so it should help establish some sort of baseline. If ya'll wouldnt mind giving them an ATG pass or fail, and then explaining why it may help set a primer:
Ken Norton
Kostya Tszyu
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Naseem Hamed
Finito Lopez
Virgil Hill
Joe Calzaghe
Shane Mosley
For anyone who has taught AP history, and gone on to do the reading, you are aware of them giving you examples to read over and then grade as a whole at your table. Then adjusting your scores to match what the heads have marked. They do this over and over to establish a primer of sort. I think that would be beneficial to this discussion, for though we may not all rank each fighter the same, having a primer as to where we define ATG could help in the communication.
As such, I thought of a list of several, more recent fighters who are probably along the line of, or at least would help establish where that line is. All are well known so it should help establish some sort of baseline. If ya'll wouldnt mind giving them an ATG pass or fail, and then explaining why it may help set a primer:
Ken Norton
Kostya Tszyu
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Naseem Hamed
Finito Lopez
Virgil Hill
Joe Calzaghe
Shane Mosley
Great question. Ken Norton is just below the line, Tommy Hearns just above it. Almost ATG I would also give to Rid**** Bowe, as a previous post mentioned, maybe Ray Mancini on the wrong side of the line. Shane Mosley? Right on the line. But then he beat De La Hoya twice and I have Oscar as an ATG so maybe Shane has to be there. Fernando Vargas falls just short, Victor Cruz falls further short, this is hard, as the saying goes, there are levels in this sport. Is there one super-elite level above ATG for the top dozen? Would Mike Tyson be in it? Where will today's stars end up? I'm going to keep thinking about this ........
Great question. Ken Norton is just below the line, Tommy Hearns just above it. Almost ATG I would also give to Rid**** Bowe, as a previous post mentioned, maybe Ray Mancini on the wrong side of the line. Shane Mosley? Right on the line. But then he beat De La Hoya twice and I have Oscar as an ATG so maybe Shane has to be there. Fernando Vargas falls just short, Victor Cruz falls further short, this is hard, as the saying goes, there are levels in this sport. Is there one super-elite level above ATG for the top dozen? Would Mike Tyson be in it? Where will today's stars end up? I'm going to keep thinking about this ........
For sure with Bowe. Guy got his big taste of fame and money, and then put on 50 pounds and was never the same again
You have to show some of those massive calculations sometime, lest people assume you just got carried away being colorful and hyperbolic. A man just can't beat calculations! And of course they must be lay-appropriate.
P.S. The shorter gentleman in my avatar is 6'5" tall!
We know all about Angus MacAskill. Talk about hyperbole! Lol
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