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1. It is true criminals did more than they have to answer for, but that whole rational opens up a whole host of ethical problems. For example, if we know baseball players are associated with certain behaviors like ********, and we catch Pete Rose, are we to assume other ball players do not gamble? In either case we are justifying a conclusion with an assumption rather than an actual event. Does this make it wrong to justify such a conclusion? Not necessarily, however, it tends to make it appear that a person is more guilty than they are. In the case of Rose, we know there was a lot of ******** on games going on... and fingering one guy as a monumental destroyer was mscharacterizing the situation.
Knowing that Liston probably committed other crimes tells us about as much. In either case we have reduced our understanding because we have tried to simplify it... So: with Rose: how do we know the extent of the ********? How do we know how much Rose was responsible for, compared to others? All we know is that one person was committing something that a lot of people were doing and that a lot of people not banned from the Hall of Fame were at least as guilty as Rose. So, instead of fining Rose, he was not treated fairly compared to others.
With Liston: How do we know the complex human decision making that might have stopped Liston from committing crimes, or the good things that were done along with the crimes? How do we know how forced Liston was to commit these acts? In BOTH cases my point is, there is a lot more to consider and when we make any assumptions in addition to the guilt of crimes commited, we have to consider all other circumstances as well, which is impossible. I know this is a hard point to follow... To encapsulate it: Are we being fair to Liston when only considering the negative aspects of what we do not know?
2. Fighters often have criminal pasts. Marciano was a street fighter that hurt a lot of innocent people, yet was loved. Part of American values is redemption for a person who has paid his dues.
3. Regarding beatdowns: If you owe taxes and openly and notoriously mock the IRS, isolate yourself, they will track you down and even kill you. If you are injured and an insurance company can delay paying out, using the payout money for arbitrage in the meantime, they always will do so. And... speaking of which: If you have liquid assets put aside, in excess of any insurance payout for car insurance you could purchase, the cop and insurance co will work together and fine you, take your license, even jail you... if you do not pay for insurance...
I don't need to go on her, the point is thuggery, predatory behavoir is not exclusive to the mob... Would you prefer if Liston had been a bill collector who bullied families that could not make payments because of a trajedy? Or if Liston had been a tax collector, or the guy that comes to take your keys when you cannot afford to pay property taxes? Me? Ill take a beating. And believe it, or not, in loansharking, horrible as it is, and it is horrible... People do make arraingements.
4. Criminals are criminals. Now THAT is a statement WE CAN generalize, unlike when we assume the relative guilt of an individual based on hypatheticals (first example with Rose and Liston). The methods employed by criminals are simply a means to an end. It certainly looks more horrible when a cartel cuts heads off, but what about a country where from one earner supporting a family now, even two people working is not enough to keep a household together?
And yes, some criminals are worse than others, but not necessarily based on their methods of enforcement.
5. What makes you believe that Sonny did not respond to people helping him?
In responding to your points, I respect your beliefs. This is a debate that ultimately strengthens one's beliefs by having them challenged. My position is ALWAYS specific to any issue... I don't have a unifying agenda lol. I happen to believe that Gun ownership in America is ultimately a good thing. I also believe that as hard as it is to do... society benefitts when we make prisons rehabilitative and not torturious. I also believe when someone does their time, they paid the debt... I also empathise with victims and believe that when we retaliate, we should have the right to use a much larger degree of force... if it is too much, TOO BAD! Blaming victims who fight back will be the death of us... My point being, my views are singular and not "*******", "conservative", etc...
Knowing that Liston probably committed other crimes tells us about as much. In either case we have reduced our understanding because we have tried to simplify it... So: with Rose: how do we know the extent of the ********? How do we know how much Rose was responsible for, compared to others? All we know is that one person was committing something that a lot of people were doing and that a lot of people not banned from the Hall of Fame were at least as guilty as Rose. So, instead of fining Rose, he was not treated fairly compared to others.
With Liston: How do we know the complex human decision making that might have stopped Liston from committing crimes, or the good things that were done along with the crimes? How do we know how forced Liston was to commit these acts? In BOTH cases my point is, there is a lot more to consider and when we make any assumptions in addition to the guilt of crimes commited, we have to consider all other circumstances as well, which is impossible. I know this is a hard point to follow... To encapsulate it: Are we being fair to Liston when only considering the negative aspects of what we do not know?
2. Fighters often have criminal pasts. Marciano was a street fighter that hurt a lot of innocent people, yet was loved. Part of American values is redemption for a person who has paid his dues.
3. Regarding beatdowns: If you owe taxes and openly and notoriously mock the IRS, isolate yourself, they will track you down and even kill you. If you are injured and an insurance company can delay paying out, using the payout money for arbitrage in the meantime, they always will do so. And... speaking of which: If you have liquid assets put aside, in excess of any insurance payout for car insurance you could purchase, the cop and insurance co will work together and fine you, take your license, even jail you... if you do not pay for insurance...
I don't need to go on her, the point is thuggery, predatory behavoir is not exclusive to the mob... Would you prefer if Liston had been a bill collector who bullied families that could not make payments because of a trajedy? Or if Liston had been a tax collector, or the guy that comes to take your keys when you cannot afford to pay property taxes? Me? Ill take a beating. And believe it, or not, in loansharking, horrible as it is, and it is horrible... People do make arraingements.
4. Criminals are criminals. Now THAT is a statement WE CAN generalize, unlike when we assume the relative guilt of an individual based on hypatheticals (first example with Rose and Liston). The methods employed by criminals are simply a means to an end. It certainly looks more horrible when a cartel cuts heads off, but what about a country where from one earner supporting a family now, even two people working is not enough to keep a household together?
And yes, some criminals are worse than others, but not necessarily based on their methods of enforcement.
5. What makes you believe that Sonny did not respond to people helping him?
In responding to your points, I respect your beliefs. This is a debate that ultimately strengthens one's beliefs by having them challenged. My position is ALWAYS specific to any issue... I don't have a unifying agenda lol. I happen to believe that Gun ownership in America is ultimately a good thing. I also believe that as hard as it is to do... society benefitts when we make prisons rehabilitative and not torturious. I also believe when someone does their time, they paid the debt... I also empathise with victims and believe that when we retaliate, we should have the right to use a much larger degree of force... if it is too much, TOO BAD! Blaming victims who fight back will be the death of us... My point being, my views are singular and not "*******", "conservative", etc...
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