Sonny Liston Introspection.

[Willow The Wisp]

I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading your post. I grew up with guys like Liston... They were our protectors in addition to being our bullies. But Liston went beyond that because he had love and respect for those that looked out for him. The saddest thing to me was how Liston was made to feel ashamed at being illiterate. That is a crime, considering how intelligent the man was.

For a man that lived in the rougher districts of existential grace Liston was actually quite generous and reasonable. He never had to be kind and it went against his fight persona. But he was humane and wanted to be accepted, loved. My heart is always on my sleeve when I think of Night Train.

Thanks good buddy.

Being a heartless badass and destoyer of men is what people want, and what they expect of a professional fighter, and to be sure, if the moment called for it, Sonny Liston could deliver that in bulk.
Arguably better than any unarmed person who ever walked the earth.

But he was so much more than that. Much much more.

For anybody (like you) interested in Sonny Liston and the truth, this is a great, and very typical episode to come to know:

https://www.pressherald.com/2015/05/24/for-an-8-year-old-boy-sonny-liston-was-just-a-friend/

[billeau2]

Thanks good buddy.

Being a heartless badass and destoyer of men is what people want, and what they expect of a professional fighter, and to be sure, if the moment called for it, Sonny Liston could deliver that in bulk.
Arguably better than any unarmed person who ever walked the earth.

But he was so much more than that. Much much more.

For anybody (like you) interested in Sonny Liston and the truth, this is a great, and very typical episode to come to know:

https://www.pressherald.com/2015/05/24/for-an-8-year-old-boy-sonny-liston-was-just-a-friend/

Nice read... He had a reputation for being great with kids.

[Slugfester]

Responding to several at once...

Liston was the guy his gangsters called in just before they called in the hit man, so inadvertently Sonny probably saved many lives. Well then, let's forgive him his peccadilloes, since they only made him "complicated," anyway.

Sure he was complicated. But so is everyone else. Hitler adored children too, the obviously Teutonic ones at least. He loved his animals too.

Sonny was no Hitler. But let's not forget he was a thug, which also made him a criminal! He was in the prison of public opinion and he wanted out on parole. Sometimes it does not come so easily when you are stuffing policemen into garbage cans upside down.

We live in a backward time when criminals are characteristically forgiven, their crimes pleaded down and all the rationalizations of why they did it put to work. I may live in California, but I still call a crime a crime. Sonny did some time behind bars. That still doesn't make him a nice guy people want to trust.

Like was said, we want mean boxers. We love them more than mere technicians. I love Liston because he was a great boxer and real mean. I have felt sorry for him, too. I just got broken of that by more thought. You don't just walk out of the prison of public opinion because you only legally beat up people now, (except policemen), and feel bad about the lack of love and adoration you receive. Rejection and distrust is a natural consequence of former bad actions, whether you paid or not.

Fact is, if we needed someone committing crimes and going to prison to get mean enough to please us at boxing, I know I would rather give up mean boxers.

Even though still somewhat overlooked, Sonny gets more respect now than he ever did anyway. After a while people forget and forgive thug crimes. His reputation is likely to make a comeback. People under the spell of time are very forgiving.

But by the same token no one is forgiving Tony the Tiger or Ike for their crimes. But time will diminish even their crimes. Sonny is now nearly absolved.

[mrbig1]

Yeah robbed... even though he knocked George down... Only fighter that got robbed was Jimmy, against Norton as well. You a fool!

young vs Norton was a very close fight. Could have gone either way. in 1964 Clay was the #1 contender before the Liston fight. Wins over Doug Jones and Henry Cooper does not make you #1. the fact is Liston wiped out the HW division. no one was left. I have Liston #4 on my all time HW list. Behind Ali, Louis, and Lewis.

[billeau2]

Responding to several at once...

Liston was the guy his gangsters called in just before they called in the hit man, so inadvertently Sonny probably saved many lives. Well then, let's forgive him his peccadilloes, since they only made him "complicated," anyway.

Sure he was complicated. But so is everyone else. Hitler adored children too, the obviously Teutonic ones at least. He loved his animals too.

Sonny was no Hitler. But let's not forget he was a thug, which also made him a criminal! He was in the prison of public opinion and he wanted out on parole. Sometimes it does not come so easily when you are stuffing policemen into garbage cans upside down.

We live in a backward time when criminals are characteristically forgiven, their crimes pleaded down and all the rationalizations of why they did it put to work. I may live in California, but I still call a crime a crime. Sonny did some time behind bars. That still doesn't make him a nice guy people want to trust.

Like was said, we want mean boxers. We love them more than mere technicians. I love Liston because he was a great boxer and real mean. I have felt sorry for him, too. I just got broken of that by more thought. You don't just walk out of the prison of public opinion because you only legally beat up people now, (except policemen), and feel bad about the lack of love and adoration you receive. Rejection and distrust is a natural consequence of former bad actions, whether you paid or not.

Fact is, if we needed someone committing crimes and going to prison to get mean enough to please us at boxing, I know I would rather give up mean boxers.

Even though still somewhat overlooked, Sonny gets more respect now than he ever did anyway. After a while people forget and forgive thug crimes. His reputation is likely to make a comeback. People under the spell of time are very forgiving.

But by the same token no one is forgiving Tony the Tiger or Ike for their crimes. But time will diminish even their crimes. Sonny is now nearly absolved.

Well... when I say "complicated" I am considering many things. For example, Charles Manson was "complicated" but was basically a government snitch, an illiterate two bit fixer that was taught to destroy, along with the other opportunists, what was a legitimate Bakti movement in our country... So fck Manson. Sonny, on the other hand, did his time, including for stuffing any cops (this story might be exxagerated). I feel strongly that when a felon does his time, he did his time... Also, the general public never forgave Liston, that was part of the pathos regarding his situation. Sonny legitimately wanted to be accepted and was rebuffed.

Perhaps it is not common boxing knowledge, but it has been very recent times that saw Liston being revisited. As a matter of fact, the word choice I used on the thread title (I should have qualified it) was to encourage our own feelings about Liston... How our own points in life where we do not have image consultants to smooth over, and perhaps little moral guidance, how it makes us feel looking at Sonny and his situation. Liston did have the benefit of good people straightening him out... We need more such people like the priest that helped him along.

So Its not my intention to gloss over Sonny's faults. I will say this: The immanent violence of a beatdown compared to the corporate thuggery we have in the modern world, the control insurance companies, etc have over us... I would always take the beatdown lol. But that is just me.

[billeau2]

young vs Norton was a very close fight. Could have gone either way. in 1964 Clay was the #1 contender before the Liston fight. Wins over Doug Jones and Henry Cooper does not make you #1. the fact is Liston wiped out the HW division. no one was left. I have Liston #4 on my all time HW list. Behind Ali, Louis, and Lewis.

If you give Young either the Ali, or Norton fight... and look at his record it is simply astounding. He beat some of the most competative heavyweights, in perhaps the strongest division. If you decide to watch the fights and not consider the judges Young was a competitor in the golden age of heavyweight boxing, and won many of his fights prior to "checking out" after the Norton loss... That means: Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Ali, Norton. I give Jimmy some slack because it is obvious when he developed, when he checked out, and how good he was at his best.

I agree about Liston... I don't do lists very well but I call Liston a top ATG heavyweight, and would put him in a top 5 easily.

[mrbig1]

If you give Young either the Ali, or Norton fight... and look at his record it is simply astounding. He beat some of the most competative heavyweights, in perhaps the strongest division. If you decide to watch the fights and not consider the judges Young was a competitor in the golden age of heavyweight boxing, and won many of his fights prior to "checking out" after the Norton loss... That means: Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Ali, Norton. I give Jimmy some slack because it is obvious when he developed, when he checked out, and how good he was at his best.

I agree about Liston... I don't do lists very well but I call Liston a top ATG heavyweight, and would put him in a top 5 easily.

Agree 100%. I do think Young beat Ali and may have beat Norton as well. Young made Lyle look foolish in their 2 fights. Outstanding boxer and tough.

[billeau2]

Agree 100%. I do think Young beat Ali and may have beat Norton as well. Young made Lyle look foolish in their 2 fights. Outstanding boxer and tough.

There is a bit of a correlate between Young and Liston lol. Certainly not their style! But Young came up in a den of Rattlesnakes and was a Python so to speak... In the land of boxing Philly was the land of ****ers... Brisco, Frazier, Witherspoon. Tough, hard punching men whom took advantage of God's oversight in not giving them a reverse gear. Young was a boxer, a mover, a technical fighter with angles, fast hands and the ability to take a shot when needed with a smile.

Like Liston Young never felt appreciated. He took it personally when the decision was given to Ali and especially the Norton fight. Many say it broke his heart, much as it broke Liston's heart when he came back from the Patterson win expecting a crowd and no one showed up. Young was an amazing fighter. His fight against Foreman was textbook and... some people would consider his treatment of Lyle, compared to Ali and Foreman, another mark of his skill, though we do have to consider how styles make fights.

[Slugfester]

Well... when I say "complicated" I am considering many things. For example, Charles Manson was "complicated" but was basically a government snitch, an illiterate two bit fixer that was taught to destroy, along with the other opportunists, what was a legitimate Bakti movement in our country... So fck Manson. Sonny, on the other hand, did his time, including for stuffing any cops (this story might be exxagerated). I feel strongly that when a felon does his time, he did his time... Also, the general public never forgave Liston, that was part of the pathos regarding his situation.

Perhaps it is not common boxing knowledge, but it has been very recent times that saw Liston being revisited. As a matter of fact, the word choice I used on the thread title (I should have qualified it) was to encourage our own feelings about Liston... How our own points in life where we do not have image consultants to smooth over, and perhaps little moral guidance, how it makes us feel looking at Sonny and his situation.

Hmmm...

So Its not my intention to gloss over Sonny's faults. I will say this: The immanent violence of a beatdown compared to the corporate thuggery we have in the modern world, the control insurance companies, etc have over us... I would always take the beatdown lol. But that is just me.

My letter probably inadvertently came off as accusatory or argumentative. I actually agree with most of your sentiments, other than a few points. I will highlight them in red.

(this story might be exxagerated). But so might be anything else, including other Sonny stories, government and corporate bulletins, etc.

Sonny, on the other hand, did his time, including for stuffing...

I for one, always assume that a criminal committed more crimes than he is charged with. I would be right about 99.999% of the time.

Sonny legitimately wanted to be accepted and was rebuffed.

I tried to explain why. People don't in general care to support, associate with, trust, admire or promote criminals--until recently, that is. Sonny's criminal past was well advertised in papers all over the nation, for sure. Point: it ain't that easy to get a lot of love when you take a cop's gun from him and steal his hat and everybody finds out.

The immanent violence of a beatdown compared to the corporate thuggery we have in the modern world, the control insurance companies, etc have over us... I would always take the beatdown lol.

Some of these beatdowns kill people or leave them in suspended comas. Are those the ones you are willing to take?

The more interesting consideration is: which of the two species would you rather have as congressional representatives: the same old corporate familiars, or a congress composed of street criminals like MS-13?

So Its not my intention to gloss over Sonny's faults.

We do things all the time we didn't intend to, like misleading titles for our letters.

We need more such people like the priest that helped him along.

Sure we do, but Liston never responded to good people until he was in prison, except to break their thumbs.

How our own points in life where we do not have image consultants to smooth over, and perhaps little moral guidance, how it makes us feel looking at Sonny and his situation.

Huh? How did image consultant get in here?

Liston did have the benefit of good people straightening him out...

The warden might have had as much to do with it as the priest. Maybe his meanness is what led to Sonny's straightening out and the priest merely found the legal violence. Liston must have been an awesome sight in prison.

P.S. I hope you can appreciate that a lot of red I used was supposed to be a big funny joke, that I gave up on. I didn't say anything I don't actually believe, though, I just left some other things out I do believe.

[QueensburyRules]

There is a bit of a correlate between Young and Liston lol. Certainly not their style! But Young came up in a den of Rattlesnakes and was a Python so to speak... In the land of boxing Philly was the land of ****ers... Brisco, Frazier, Witherspoon. Tough, hard punching men whom took advantage of God's oversight in not giving them a reverse gear. Young was a boxer, a mover, a technical fighter with angles, fast hands and the ability to take a shot when needed with a smile.

Like Liston Young never felt appreciated. He took it personally when the decision was given to Ali and especially the Norton fight. Many say it broke his heart, much as it broke Liston's heart when he came back from the Patterson win expecting a crowd and no one showed up. Young was an amazing fighter. His fight against Foreman was textbook and... some people would consider his treatment of Lyle, compared to Ali and Foreman, another mark of his skill, though we do have to consider how styles make fights.

- - Ran like a scalded cat. George pounded him backwards everytime he managed to catch him, George doing 90% of the fighting and Jimmy 100% of the running.

That's fine. George like against Ali lost a battle and won the WAR which is all that counts. Poor Jimmy and George never the same should've never signed up for the flimsy DK promotion that featured Tubby Lar still skinny then fighting some unknown 5 fight novice on the undercard...pitiable for even DKing standards to be sure.

Even Kerouac and Ginsburg were shamed...