How Did Tyson Fury succeed where Muhammad Ali failed?

[Willie Pep 229]

Nah i know im only jesting. You make a very good arguement. Like with all boxing only time can tell. I think and want fury to always win.

Just a moment ago in a different thread, making a different point, I called Fury the actual champ, because he is . . . Just wish the whole thing would play itself out -- we need more great fights.

[max baer]

Just a moment ago in a different thread, making a different point, I called Fury the actual champ, because he is . . . Just wish the whole thing would play itself out -- we need more great fights.

Yeah i know. Tyson had 3 fights a year but it is the business now i guess.

[HOUDINI563]

You know the background.....

Between 03-23-67 and 10-26-70, "The Greatest", Muhammad Ali was forced to temporarily retire from boxing and stood on the shelf for 3 years, 7 months and 3 days, or 1,313 days.
When he left he was the undisputed Heavyweight champion of the world and undefeated in 29 professional fights.

Fast forward to modern times, and while the particulars change, we have something similar occur.

Between 11-29-15 and 06-09-18, The Gypsy King", Tyson Fury was forced to temporarily retire from boxing and stood on the shelf for 2 years, 6 months, 11 days, or 923 days.
When he left he was the universally recognized and linial Heavyweight champion of the world and undefeated in 25 professional fights.

When at long last Ali was allowed to again ply his chosen trade, he returned to action and took on two of the best top 10 ranked contenders in the world in Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena. One sided wins over two of the best fighters he'd ever fought instantly re established Ali as the 1st or 2nd best heavyweight on the planet during a great period in heavyweight history; and he was prepared to face the new dominant force on the scene, Joe Frazier, 26-0-0.
Ali was 29 years of age.


After seeking medical help for several serious emotional health ailments and miraculously getting himself back in condition, at long last Fury was declaired fit to fight again, he returned to action and took on two mediocre talents good enough only to assist Fury regain his timing, if not his fighting prowess. One sided wins in those tune-ups was enough, however, to re establish Fury as the 1st or 2nd or 3rd best heavyweight on the planet during yet another great period in heavyweight history; and he somehow was left feeling prepared to face the new dominant force on the scene, Deontay Wilder, 40-0-0.
Fury was 30.



Now Wilder and Frazier both receive criticism here and so too, do Ali and Fury for that matter; but anyone who knows enough about the fight game to have earned a discussion on the subject will readily admit that fighters too much better than those four are found only in the comic books and in Hong Kong choreography.

Enough said that both Ali and Fury were really going for it. Strait to the title - Most dangerious opponents that the mother earth could provide to them.

If there was a difference between their respective challenges, it was surly that Ali took out two top guns for his preparation. Fury went in just about cold.

And yet........

Ali got Dumped and lost a classic.
Fury got dumped twice, but he salvaged a draw by winning more rounds in another classic.
Both, of course would go on to beat their dance partners twice apiece later on, but it would never be easy. Seldom is easy when greats go head to head.

Both Frazier and Wilder would prove still dominant among their peers for a while longer.
Both Ali and Fury would go on to dominance in their respective eras as champions, but for their BIG title reclamation comback nights, how was Fury able to do better than "The Greatest", if only slightly? And with so much less real good opponent/real fight preparation?

It's to ponder when determining what greatness is.

Ridiculous “analysis”. Fury has fought no one of any note. Ali fought a who’s who of excellent fighters and disposed of a fringe ATG in Liston.

Frazier was a fringe ATG and will be remembered 100 years from now. Wilder will be long forgotten by the end of this decade.

[_Rexy_]

Call me when Fury fights guys like Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, George Foreman….**** it, I’ll even take a Chuck Wepner.

[Marchegiano]

Just a moment ago in a different thread, making a different point, I called Fury the actual champ, because he is . . . Just wish the whole thing would play itself out -- we need more great fights.

Because he beat Wlad and Usyk didn't?

Not arguing just trying to figure out how folks define these things. Usyk does have more belts.

[HOUDINI563]

Fury beat Wilder and Wlad. That’s it of any note. Wilder does not know how to fight and Wlad was well past his prime.

Fury retired and the bout between AJ and Usyk was for the true worlds heavyweight championship. Usyk won. Usyk is the current true champion.

[Willie Pep 229]

Because he beat Wlad and Usyk didn't?

Not arguing just trying to figure out how folks define these things. Usyk does have more belts.

Partly - I do prefer the lineal, fan recognized champion.

Not because in the end it will be more fair, sometimes it isn't. Not that it awards the right fighter, sometimes it doesn't.

But I am certain that it weakens the scantioning bodies and at some level that helps to empower the fighters.

The scantioning bodies can't control the fans or the lineal title (which then adds legitimacy to fan recognition.)

There has, since the middle 1960s, been multiple scantioning body titles, with their number increasing each decade, but through it all, (except for short periods) we usually had one title holder who was viewd as "the champion," despite the other belt holders, e.g. Larry Holmes in the 1980s.

Wald eventually got himself into that postion and enough fans were then satisfied that Fury's victory over Wald earned him the title.

The other side of the argument (which actually goes more to the rise of Anthony Joshua than Uysk sudden appearance) is to recognize the fighter who collects the most titles and moves towards being recognized as "undisputed."

I don't care much for that latter route to the title, it empowers the SBs too much. So I go with Fury as champion. It won't last if he doesn't step up in competition soon.

If he doesn't step up soon, fans will turn away and look to the SBs for an answer/a champion to recognize.

In the end the title is fluid, my attitude towards recognition, or how to, can change with the circumstances.

I do believe it's important to have one champion. "Multiple Champions" sounds like an oxymoron to me.

[JAB5239]

Partly - I do prefer the lineal, fan recognized champion.

Not because in the end it will be more fair, sometimes it isn't. Not that it awards the right fighter, sometimes it doesn't.

But I am certain that it weakens the scantioning bodies and at some level that helps to empower the fighters.

The scantioning bodies can't control the fans or the lineal title (which then adds legitimacy to fan recognition.)

There has, since the middle 1960s, been multiple scantioning body titles, with their number increasing each decade, but through it all, (except for short periods) we usually had one title holder who was viewd as "the champion," despite the other belt holders, e.g. Larry Holmes in the 1980s.

Wald eventually got himself into that postion and enough fans were then satisfied that Fury's victory over Wald earned him the title.

The other side of the argument (which actually goes more to the rise of Anthony Joshua than Uysk sudden appearance) is to recognize the fighter who collects the most titles and moves towards being recognized as "undisputed."

I don't care much for that latter route to the title, it empowers the SBs too much. So I go with Fury as champion. It won't last if he doesn't step up in competition soon.

If he doesn't step up soon, fans will turn away and look to the SBs for an answer/a champion to recognize.

In the end the title is fluid, my attitude towards recognition, or how to, can change with the circumstances.

I do believe it's important to have one champion. "Multiple Champions" sounds like an oxymoron to me.

This is the only world we inhabit, so there can be only one world champion. So.e of my favorite fighter thru the years have collected ABC belts. I was happy for them, but that didn't make the the champion of the world in whatever respective division they may have fought in.

[max baer]

Call me when Fury fights guys like Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, George Foreman….**** it, I’ll even take a Chuck Wepner.

the problem with me is that because i am a mate of fury (not a mate like drinking buddies but like i helped him out and when he was down by sharing how i deal with depression and he showed me the correct path in how to deal with life and be bold and our paths have crossed over the years and from time to time we met and wished each other well on the way and I told him he could be heavyweight champion of the world at 14 then i saw him a few years later on the tube and he was like built like ivan drago must have been about 18 and i wished him luck to become heavyweight champion. i told him i pity the poor bloke who has to fight you. when he was very depressed he visited me and i prefer to write then to talk as with everyone even family i can express myself well writing but terribly orating. so i gave fury the hello hows things then i wrote to him. I like to help people. it is like when i help people that i admire i feel so good like ive made someones life better that i looked to with admiration and its the best feeling. im not after anything in return i just feel good when i am able to help make people happier especially people that i am a fan of that dont know i admire them it is like a way of saying "hi there i am a good fan of yours and wanted to help to say hello". Thing with fury is that on the night of his fights i get so f***ING anxious i cant sit still i am a bag of nerves for him as I want him to win so badly. I have such admiration for him and I cant relax. Sometimes I need to drink just to calm down. With other fights i can enjoy it and go with the blows but with fury i get so edgy and nervous i just think please mate do what you need to do and i just feel afterw that i have been on some weeklong adventure and need to rest a long time thats how it feels. one thing with fury where he is just like ali is that if the whole world said a certain path is the way to save us and he felt the other path was the right one he would go his path and only after would the world say "**** he was right i see it now!" like ali told the interviewer after the rope a dope he revealed what he done and everyone realised or when he knocked liston out in their second fight the anchor punch he had practiced and practiced and nearly gave it away in build up interviews when his trainer stopped him telling anyone about his plan to blitz liston when liston was not expecting that and fury is the same he has the mind of a king, I liken him to a young henry the 8th like as a young man he was great at all sports and strong and i just hope fury doesnt end up with 6 wifes!
he is like a medievil king. Or like hamish in braveheart!
one other thing i have seen in life is that i am very spiritual and i believe that some people have older souls they just seem to be too wise for their age. look at noel gallagher when other kids were ****ting their shorts he was writing songs and learning guitar and knew his path was to be a rock star and he must have an old soul. i first met noel at pontins in blackpool aged 9 and then again a few times in our school summer holidays in dublin as we both are from irish parents and love ireland. Noel just had a mind that was too advanced for his years it is spooky and it really really frightened me. Fury is similar he achieved all a man desires before he was even 28 and seems to exude a confidence that men just dont have. you see it is some people and it is very strange gets me wondering about our souls and spiritual stuff.
Thats the story. i am saying this mainly to explain to old mates who read this at some point who wonder how i know fury.
one thing i found today, i wish tommy fury all the best
joe rogan discussing tommy fury
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbPl9Sc57co
what these guys havent noticed is that they have that dad of theirs big john fury and he is the ultimate trainer, if anyone doesn't know the knowledge of big john fury they are missing the point entirely/

[Willow The Wisp]

Ridiculous “analysis”. Fury has fought no one of any note. Ali fought a who’s who of excellent fighters and disposed of a fringe ATG in Liston.

Frazier was a fringe ATG and will be remembered 100 years from now. Wilder will be long forgotten by the end of this decade.

Sorry, I don't debate. I'm here only to teach. In any classroom where admission is open, you have good students and poor students. Genetics, mostly.