Originally posted by Willie Pep 229
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Langford vs Greb
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"Greb was not considered a dirty fighter until late in his career after he was blind in one eye and lost his depth perception this necessitated the foul that he was most commonly accused of: holding and hitting? In an era when John Ruiz became a HW champion would Greb be considered a foul fighter? I doubt it. In his own era he was DQd one time in 300 fights and that was considered a very controversial DQ that was almost overturned."
Klompton - August 7, 2015
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Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post"Greb was not considered a dirty fighter until late in his career after he was blind in one eye and lost his depth perception this necessitated the foul that he was most commonly accused of: holding and hitting? In an era when John Ruiz became a HW champion would Greb be considered a foul fighter? I doubt it. In his own era he was DQd one time in 300 fights and that was considered a very controversial DQ that was almost overturned."
Klompton - August 7, 2015
I should think Kid Norfolk was a dirtier fighter than Harry, but who really knows?
Fritzie Zivic was a dirty fighter and readily admitted to it,he was never disqualfied
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Originally posted by Ivich View PostSteve Compton is probably the expert on Greb,but Greb is his hero so I wouldn't expect objectivity from him. I'm not saying Greb was dirty, many of the tales that surround his name are probably apochryphal.He was certainly no PO Curran, but he probably bent the rules a bit ,as most guys did then .
I should think Kid Norfolk was a dirtier fighter than Harry, but who really knows?
Fritzie Zivic was a dirty fighter and readily admitted to it,he was never disqualfiedIvich likes this.
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Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
As I said to Z, I'm not claiming Greb was an angel nor never committed a foul, only that the tales of him being dirty have been exaggerated. In the quote from Tunney I alluded to earlier in this thread, the quote I can no longer find, Tunney said Greb wasn't a dirty fighter unless someone used dirty tactics on him first. That is not verbatim, just the gist of the quote.
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Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
Fighters clash heads ALL of the time. That doesn't make them a dirty fighter. There are time where a fighter follows through with a hook and the elbow lands. If this isn't happening all the time that doesn't make them a dirty fighter. I'm not saying Greb was an angel, only that his reputation for being dirty has been far exaggerated and some of his best opponents including Tunney seem to feel this way ad well.
A fouler any way you want to slice it. Not even the best Greb historian can say this is not true. I saw you quoting him. He says Greb was dirty after his eyesight diminished. What he neglected to say was he was dirty prior the eyes sight diminishing.
Here is a round by round on Greb's victory over Tunnney. Tunney's only official defeat.
New York Times report
First round:
Greb leaped in with a right to the jaw and at close quarters mussed Tunney up. Greb landed a left hook on the nose which drew blood. In a clinch Greb pounded the stomach with hands. Tunney upper-cutted a right to the face as Greb came in. Tunney caught Greb coming in with a right and a left to the stomach. Greb tore in with rights and lefts to the face. The men were splattered with blood from Tunney's nose and were clinched on the ropes at the bell. ( not included is where smashed his head into Genes face causing the blood )
Second Round:
Greb landed two left jabs to the face. Greb jabbed a left to the face and in a clinch Tunney landed a left and a right to the body. Greb tore into Tunney and battered him with both hands to the face and body. Greb missed a right which landed on the neck and Tunney drove a right to the body. Tunney held Greb at close quarters. Greb was short with a right for the jaw but forced to the ropes with rights and lefts.
Third Round:
Tunney ducked Greb's lead and hooked a left to the stomach. Greb jabbed his left to the face and in a mix up on the ropes. Tunney was almost forced out of the ring. Greb tore in with rights and lefts to the face. Tunney ducked a right and hooked a right to the stomach. Tunney was short with a right and a left for the face. Tunney hooked a left to the jaw and forced Greb to the ropes.
Fourth Round:
Greb landed a left to the face and they clinched. Greb was cautioned for hitting on the break. Tunney sent Greb's head back with a left jab and dug a right to the stomach. Tunney ducked Greb's left jab and dug a right to the stomach. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Tunney drove a right to the body. At close quarters Tunney pounded the stomach. They were in the midst of a hot mix up at the bell.
Fifth Round:
Tunney beat Greb to the punch and landed a right to the heart. Greb missed a left jab and was wild with a right swing for the face. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Greb slipped to the floor but was up in an instant, no punch being struck. Tunney drove a hard right to the stomach. Tunney crossed a right to the face. Greb landed three lefts to the face in quick succession. Tunney forced Greb to the ropes and pounded the stomach with both hands.
Sixth Round:
Greb led a left to the face. They both almost fell out of the ring in a wild attack near Tunney's corner. Their heads came together and an old cut was opened near Tunney's left eye. Tunney bled freely from the wound. Greb tore in furiously, leading with lefts and rights to the stomach. Tunney drove Greb to the ropes with lefts and rights to the stomach.
Seventh Round:
Greb missed a left and right and landed a light left to the face. The cut over Tunney's eye was reopened. In a clinch Greb was almost wrestled down.The crowd booed Greb for hitting on the break. Tunney rushed Greb to the ropes and landed a left to the stomach. Greb held Tunney's arms in the clinches. Tunney lifted Greb off his feet with a left to the stomach.
Eighth Round:
Greb was wild with a right for the face. Greb grazed the face with a left jab. Greb landed a right to the face and Tunney's eye was bleeding again. Greb leaped in with a left and a right to the face. Tunney hooked a left to the face and forced Greb to the ropes. Greb leaped in his left and right to the face. Greb hooked a left to the stomach and uppercut right to the face.
Ninth Round:
Blood was coming from cuts over both of Tunney's eyes when he answered the bell. Greb hooked a left to the jaw and drove Tunney to the ropes. Greb hooked a left to the face. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. Greb jabbed his left to the face. Tunney landed a left and right to the body. Greb landed a right to the face.
Tenth Round:
Greb jabbed his left to the face. They wrestled to the ropes in a clinch. Greb jabbed the face with a left. Tunney missed a right to the stomach and they clinched. Tunney dug his left to the stomach. Greb drove a right and a left to the face. In close Tunney peppered the stomach with both hands.
Eleventh Round:
Greb jabbed his left to the face. Greb was short with a left for the stomach. They clinched. Tunney hooked a right to the stomach. Tunney missed a left hook for the jaw and Greb missed a left hook for the jaw. Tunney dug a left to the stomach. They wrestled all over the ring in a clinch. Greb sent Tunney's head back with a left jab.
Twelfth Round:
Tunney missed a left hook to the face. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. Greb hooked a left to the jaw and twice jabbed the left without return. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Tunney landed a left to the face. In a spirited rally Greb outpunched Tunney. Tunney worked both hands to the stomach at close quarters.
Thirteenth Round:
Greb missed with a right to the face and they clinched. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. As the men came together Tunney crossed with a left to the face and Greb with a left to the stomach. Tunney landed a left and a right to the face. Greb tore into Tunney leading with both hands to the face and stomach. A straw hat came sailing into the ring. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. Greb drove a right to the face.
Fourteenth Round:
Greb landed a right to the face and they clinched. Greb drove a right and a left to the face. Greb rushed in with rights and lefts to the face and had Tunney missing. Greb slipped as he led with a left but no blow was struck. Greb ripped a right to the body. Greb was short with a left hook to the jaw. Greb landed a right to the stomach but took a left to the stomach in return.
Fifteenth Round:
They shook hands. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Tunney landed a short right to the face. Tunney missed a right and a left for the face. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Greb crossed a right to the head. Tunney hooked a right to the stomach. They exchanged blows at long range and both landing lefts and rights to the face. Greb drove Tunney to the ropes under a shower of lefts and rights. Greb landed a jab to the face at the bell.
Last edited by Dr. Z; 11-01-2022, 11:00 AM.
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Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
Yes this so, but Greb is known for this tactic of head buts say like Holyfield is. Tunney's corner said he did it several times in one fight. An accidental head butts do happen but with Greb it happened a bit more that that. It was part of his usual jumping in and out ( can't thing of another fighter who's style was defined as a kangaroo by the press ). He also used elbows and other illegal stuff and hit on the break too,
A fouler any way you want to slice it. Not even the best Greb historian can say this is not true. I saw you quoting him. He says Greb was dirty after his eyesight diminished. What he neglected to say was he was dirty prior the eyes sight diminishing.
Here is a round by round on Greb's victory over Tunnney. Tunney's only official defeat.
New York Times report
First round:
Greb leaped in with a right to the jaw and at close quarters mussed Tunney up. Greb landed a left hook on the nose which drew blood. In a clinch Greb pounded the stomach with hands. Tunney upper-cutted a right to the face as Greb came in. Tunney caught Greb coming in with a right and a left to the stomach. Greb tore in with rights and lefts to the face. The men were splattered with blood from Tunney's nose and were clinched on the ropes at the bell. ( not included is where smashed his head into Genes face causing the blood )
Second Round:
Greb landed two left jabs to the face. Greb jabbed a left to the face and in a clinch Tunney landed a left and a right to the body. Greb tore into Tunney and battered him with both hands to the face and body. Greb missed a right which landed on the neck and Tunney drove a right to the body. Tunney held Greb at close quarters. Greb was short with a right for the jaw but forced to the ropes with rights and lefts.
Third Round:
Tunney ducked Greb's lead and hooked a left to the stomach. Greb jabbed his left to the face and in a mix up on the ropes. Tunney was almost forced out of the ring. Greb tore in with rights and lefts to the face. Tunney ducked a right and hooked a right to the stomach. Tunney was short with a right and a left for the face. Tunney hooked a left to the jaw and forced Greb to the ropes.
Fourth Round:
Greb landed a left to the face and they clinched. Greb was cautioned for hitting on the break. Tunney sent Greb's head back with a left jab and dug a right to the stomach. Tunney ducked Greb's left jab and dug a right to the stomach. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Tunney drove a right to the body. At close quarters Tunney pounded the stomach. They were in the midst of a hot mix up at the bell.
Fifth Round:
Tunney beat Greb to the punch and landed a right to the heart. Greb missed a left jab and was wild with a right swing for the face. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Greb slipped to the floor but was up in an instant, no punch being struck. Tunney drove a hard right to the stomach. Tunney crossed a right to the face. Greb landed three lefts to the face in quick succession. Tunney forced Greb to the ropes and pounded the stomach with both hands.
Sixth Round:
Greb led a left to the face. They both almost fell out of the ring in a wild attack near Tunney's corner. Their heads came together and an old cut was opened near Tunney's left eye. Tunney bled freely from the wound. Greb tore in furiously, leading with lefts and rights to the stomach. Tunney drove Greb to the ropes with lefts and rights to the stomach.
Seventh Round:
Greb missed a left and right and landed a light left to the face. The cut over Tunney's eye was reopened. In a clinch Greb was almost wrestled down.The crowd booed Greb for hitting on the break. Tunney rushed Greb to the ropes and landed a left to the stomach. Greb held Tunney's arms in the clinches. Tunney lifted Greb off his feet with a left to the stomach.
Eighth Round:
Greb was wild with a right for the face. Greb grazed the face with a left jab. Greb landed a right to the face and Tunney's eye was bleeding again. Greb leaped in with a left and a right to the face. Tunney hooked a left to the face and forced Greb to the ropes. Greb leaped in his left and right to the face. Greb hooked a left to the stomach and uppercut right to the face.
Ninth Round:
Blood was coming from cuts over both of Tunney's eyes when he answered the bell. Greb hooked a left to the jaw and drove Tunney to the ropes. Greb hooked a left to the face. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. Greb jabbed his left to the face. Tunney landed a left and right to the body. Greb landed a right to the face.
Tenth Round:
Greb jabbed his left to the face. They wrestled to the ropes in a clinch. Greb jabbed the face with a left. Tunney missed a right to the stomach and they clinched. Tunney dug his left to the stomach. Greb drove a right and a left to the face. In close Tunney peppered the stomach with both hands.
Eleventh Round:
Greb jabbed his left to the face. Greb was short with a left for the stomach. They clinched. Tunney hooked a right to the stomach. Tunney missed a left hook for the jaw and Greb missed a left hook for the jaw. Tunney dug a left to the stomach. They wrestled all over the ring in a clinch. Greb sent Tunney's head back with a left jab.
Twelfth Round:
Tunney missed a left hook to the face. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. Greb hooked a left to the jaw and twice jabbed the left without return. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Tunney landed a left to the face. In a spirited rally Greb outpunched Tunney. Tunney worked both hands to the stomach at close quarters.
Thirteenth Round:
Greb missed with a right to the face and they clinched. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. As the men came together Tunney crossed with a left to the face and Greb with a left to the stomach. Tunney landed a left and a right to the face. Greb tore into Tunney leading with both hands to the face and stomach. A straw hat came sailing into the ring. Tunney hooked a left to the stomach. Greb drove a right to the face.
Fourteenth Round:
Greb landed a right to the face and they clinched. Greb drove a right and a left to the face. Greb rushed in with rights and lefts to the face and had Tunney missing. Greb slipped as he led with a left but no blow was struck. Greb ripped a right to the body. Greb was short with a left hook to the jaw. Greb landed a right to the stomach but took a left to the stomach in return.
Fifteenth Round:
They shook hands. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Tunney landed a short right to the face. Tunney missed a right and a left for the face. Greb landed a left and a right to the face. Greb crossed a right to the head. Tunney hooked a right to the stomach. They exchanged blows at long range and both landing lefts and rights to the face. Greb drove Tunney to the ropes under a shower of lefts and rights. Greb landed a jab to the face at the bell.
Ivich likes this.
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Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
You've provided two hitting on the break and a clash of heads that was most likely accidental as he was not penalized or warned according to the NY paper from Tunneys hometown. You're reaching to paint a picture that Tunney himself refuted. No one is saying Greb was an angel. But if you're going to call him an intentionally dirty fighter for theses infractions that happen in so many other fights, you might as well call every fighter who ever lived dirty. Boxing is a rough sport. These things happen very often. But as the article I already provided states, and backs up, he probably wasn't even a top 5 dirtiest fighter in his time. Again, no one is saying Greb never fouled. No one is saying he never didn't anything illegal Intentionally. But most fighters didn't see him as intentionally dirty.JAB5239 likes this.
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Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
You've provided two hitting on the break and a clash of heads that was most likely accidental as he was not penalized or warned according to the NY paper from Tunneys hometown. You're reaching to paint a picture that Tunney himself refuted. No one is saying Greb was an angel. But if you're going to call him an intentionally dirty fighter for theses infractions that happen in so many other fights, you might as well call every fighter who ever lived dirty. Boxing is a rough sport. These things happen very often. But as the article I already provided states, and backs up, he probably wasn't even a top 5 dirtiest fighter in his time. Again, no one is saying Greb never fouled. No one is saying he never didn't anything illegal Intentionally. But most fighters didn't see him as intentionally dirty.
Your not going to budge an inch for you opinion, instead you sit back and show me, I already have . Okay I'll dig up some more quotes and old news read of his fouls. Show me he wasn't you can not! See that is not a fair way to argue. And I did show you a bit. I can add more given the time. I'm looking for the quote from Greb himself says he anything but kick a man. You reaction that is what? I'd like to read it. A rule bender he was.
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Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
I not saying he was a top 5 all time dirty fight, but far from a clean fighter. Reports often miss fouls in the ring. You said Greb was rough I'm saying he's twas a bit more that that and quote the hall of fame calling him a dirty fighter, which along with an all time great he was. That is the standard.
Your not going to budge an inch for you opinion, instead you sit back and show me, I already have . Okay I'll dig up some more quotes and old news read of his fouls. Show me he wasn't you can not! See that is not a fair way to argue. And I did show you a bit. I can add more given the time. I'm looking for the quote from Greb himself says he anything but kick a man. You reaction that is what? I'd like to read it. A rule bender he was.
So AGAIN.......I'm not saying g Greb never committed a foul, only that his antics have been exaggerated. And most of that exaggeration started after the book "Give him to the angels" came out. A book that has been ridiculed for its exaggeration concerning Greb.
As I said, I'll take the words of Tunney, Loughran and Gibbons.....the guys who were actually in the ring with him.
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