Is Vitali Klitschko an all-time top-ten heavyweight?

[QueensburyRules]

There are several paths toward greatness. Some are numerically quantifiable, others not.
Louis had Schmeling and Conn, and WW II
Ali had Liston and Foreman, and Vietnam
Holmes had Norton and Cooney
Foreman had Frazier and Moorer, and an afro
Lewis had Ruddock and Tua
Holyfield had Douglas and Tyson
Tyson had Berbick and Spinks, and that look
Wlad had big numbers
Liston had Folley, Patterson and Williams
Frazier had Ali and Ellis

.....and each one had other stuff too.
Stuff that Vitali perhaps did not have.

Above, you can note that I place Vitali very high, where he belongs. To have earned anything higher, he would have needed to knock out his brother.

- - When Vit went to America to conjure a fight, Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewie didn't want to know him and his brother. So they attracted the B levels with bigger purses than in the US and knocked near everyone out if not just beating them up. Not the Ks fault the biggest names in boxing refused to fight them, and it's been down in for American boxing ever since.

[JAB5239]

- - When Vit went to America to conjure a fight, Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewie didn't want to know him and his brother. So they attracted the B levels with bigger purses than in the US and knocked near everyone out if not just beating them up. Not the Ks fault the biggest names in boxing refused to fight them, and it's been down in for American boxing ever since.

Neither had any name recognition. By the time they were building some Wlad had lost to Purrity and Vits quit against Byrd. Do you have sources for any contracts to try and entice the fighters you've named?

[Dr. Z]

- - When Vit went to America to conjure a fight, Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewie didn't want to know him and his brother. So they attracted the B levels with bigger purses than in the US and knocked near everyone out if not just beating them up. Not the Ks fault the biggest names in boxing refused to fight them, and it's been down in for American boxing ever since.

The biggest names in the cases of Haye and Valuev avoided Vitali with belt and contacts offers. And Wlad KO'd Wilder is sparring easily. I doubt Wilder would fight him.

Yes Vitali retired vs Byrd and yes Wlad lost to Purity and the dangerous south paw Sanders, BUT after those fights they built were reputation up, they were done losing until Wlad reached age 39! For many many years the two went undefeated and dominated heavyweight boxing.

Not all fights happened but to say they missed out on top top 3 ring magazine ranked contender for years once they built the reputation up is not true.

[Dr. Z]

I like the thought put into this, to quantify supportive data and making a favored case here. I don't need or desire a segue into the nature and method of data compilation. Your work goes a long way in pointing out what many may have missed using the Ring's ratings, and that's the extent of what you're reaching for. I say that your mission has been accomplished. It goes without saying that there are other elements that cannot be set aside in formulating answers to an all-time ratings undertaking, a point to which you'll agree, but I for one like your thread and many of your posts; here hoping any debate that may transpire will make good use of allot of salient points and less use of pissing contest language in their texture. But, it's also important to always guard against the creep of historical corruption to any scholar so I've got to respectfully slip in here a mention that Vitali (and McCall) are not part of the linial Heavyweight Championship of the world and the sentence containing "Vitali and Oliver Mcall are the only two in the history of the lineal champions..." requires an asterisk. Those two where merely "World Championship title claimants", a misleading tradition which dates to Jake Kilrain and Peter Maher in the modern era and includes many exceptional contenders like Vitali.
I embrace the meaning behind your statistics regarding the elder Klitschko, and I rate him very, very highly myself. Nobody’s methodology can fully debar strains of subjectivity. Even the authors of The Ring's long respected world ratings, many of whom I have known and swapped notes with going all the way back to the unfortunately abashed Johnny Ort, (a smart guy who made one ****** mistake), and I can personally witness that they too are bound to subjectivity. That's life.
Assuming that all the criteria points that fold into my personal lists, a "bragging" preface is that lofty claims, name dropping and crafted language do not a boxing expert make. But I trust what things that I've seen.
I have seen many of these gut fight live, an I rank Vitali thusly:

I'll cut the modern era roughly in half. 1962 - 2022, and Begin with Liston.
Though Ingemar fought slightly into the 60's and Floyd stayed ranked in most circles into 72', I'll keep them (and Williams, Moore, Machen, Folley and others), back in the first half.

The 50 Best* Heavyweights of the last 60 Years:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Sonny Liston
6. Mike Tyson
7. Joe Frazier
8. Wladamir Klitschko
9. Tyson Fury (Active)
10. Evander Holyfield
11. Vitali Klitschko
12. Deontay Wilder (Active)
13. Ken Norton
14. Rid**** Bowe
15. Anthony Joshua (Active)
16. Jerry Quarry
17. Ron Lyle
18. Jimmy Ellis
19. Oleksandr Usyk (Active)
20. Jimmy Young
21. Andy Ruiz Jr. (Active)
22. Tim Witherspoon
23. George Chuvalo
24. Earnie Shavers
25. Frank Bruno
26. Ernie Terrell
27. Joe Bugner
28. Mike Weaver
29. Joe Joyce (Active)
30. Ike Ibeabuchi
31. Michael Dokes
32. David Tua
33. Alexander Povetkin
34. Gerry Cooney
35. Dillian Whyte. (Active)
36. Tony Tucker
37. Razor Ruddock
38. Joseph Parker. (Active)
39. Oliver McCall
37. Andrew Golota
38. Ray Mercer
39. Tommy Morrison
40. Gerrie Coetzee
41. James Buster Douglas
42. Michael Spinks
43. Shannon Briggs
44. Luis Ortiz (Active)
45. Michael Moorer
46. Bonecrusher Smith
47. Trevor Berbick
48. Chris Byrd
49. Hasim Rahman
50. David Haye

You might want to revise this list as you missed out on some names that beat such as Sanders. Also names like Chagev and Ibragamiov are better and have proven more than a few active fighters listed.

- My 2 cents

[Clegg]

- - When Vit went to America to conjure a fight, Tyson, Holy, Bowe, Lewie didn't want to know him and his brother. So they attracted the B levels with bigger purses than in the US and knocked near everyone out if not just beating them up. Not the Ks fault the biggest names in boxing refused to fight them, and it's been down in for American boxing ever since.

Vitali turned pro a month before Bowe-Golota II. When was Vitali-Bowe ever a viable fight that anybody tried to negotiate?

[Ivich]

Neither had any name recognition. By the time they were building some Wlad had lost to Purrity and Vits quit against Byrd. Do you have sources for any contracts to try and entice the fighters you've named?

You are asking him for sources? Good luck with that!
Wlad couldnt draw flies in the US his safety first, jab and grab style turned fans off.

K2 the Group the Klits were tied to, wanted the first 2 options on Haye if he fought Vitali and won.In effect that's the first 2 title defences against opponents of their choosing and dates,and venues of their choosing.
I think we know whom the 2 opponents would have been should Haye have got lucky!
I read in the Ring that this was standard practice for the Brothers but of course some top fighters refused these terms so we don't have the specifics.

There is no getting away from the fact that Vitali did not fight over 20 Ring ranked opponents whilst he himself was ranked.
Mentioning other names that may have acted similarly does not excuse this.
"He did it so why can't I?" is not any mitigation.

Those that acted as Vitali did are as culpable of ducking as he is.

I've said he and his Brother are admirable men and I meant it,but Vitali's legacy is terminally damaged by the lack of meaningful names on it and not being floored or losing rounds to the likes of Manuel Charr ,Danny Williams, and Albert Sosnowski does not, and never will alter that fact.

He remains an alphabet champ who kept to the shallow end of the pool ,and never swam in deep water apart from challenging Lewis and losing.

[Dr. Z]

Vitali turned pro a month before Bowe-Golota II. When was Vitali-Bowe ever a viable fight that anybody tried to negotiate?

It was not. Vitali was supposed to fight Tyson though. Lets place the side points in new threads away from is Vitali a top ten all time heavyweight. I will address those points made. Keep it fair and apply the same standards to anyone.

[Dr. Z]

You are asking him for sources? Good luck with that!
Wlad couldnt draw flies in the US his safety first jab and grab style turned fans off.

K2 the Group the Klits were tied to, wanted the first 2 options on Haye if he fought Vitali and won.In effect that's the first 2 title defences against opponents of their choosing and dates,and venues of their choosing.
I think we know whom the 2 opponents would have been should Haye have got lucky!
I read in the Ring that this was standard practice for the Brothers but of course some top fighters refused these terms so we don't have the specifics.

There is no getting away from the fact that Vitali did not fight over 20 Ring ranked opponents whilst he himself was ranked.
Mentioning other names that may have acted similarly does not excuse this.
"He did it so why can't I?" is not any mitigation.

Those that acted as Vitali did are as culpable of ducking as he is.

I've said he and his Brother are admirable men and I meant it,but Vitali's legacy is terminally damaged by the lack of meaningful names on it and not being floored or losing rounds to the likes of Manuel Charr and Albert Sosnowski does not, and never will alter that fact.
He remains an alphabet champ who kept to the shallow end of the pool ,and never swam in deep water apart from challenging Lewis and losing.

I'm not here to address Queen's points, but I will shut down posters which are haters. Vitali fought 10 ring magazine opponents who were ranked when he fought them based on my and Cliff Rold's study. He says nine, I say it's ten. Either way very few men fought more and that's is fact. This it can be read in post number one of this thread. Other fights with top ten ranked oppoents he tired to make...several of them didn't happen. That is a fact. Judge them on what actually happened. In Vitali case the he fought Charr ( who still around today ) and Sosnoski they were one sides beatings the way champions of his caliber should end them. All champions take fights like this, even Ali and his fights with Coopman and Wepner who would rate even lower than Charr and Sosnowki and some of them had hiccups. So what's your point besides hating? Well I'm waiting...

[Ivich]

You are asking him for sources? Good luck with that!
Wlad couldnt draw flies in the US his safety first, jab and grab style turned fans off.

K2 the Group the Klits were tied to, wanted the first 2 options on Haye if he fought Vitali and won.In effect that's the first 2 title defences against opponents of their choosing and dates,and venues of their choosing.
I think we know whom the 2 opponents would have been should Haye have got lucky!
I read in the Ring that this was standard practice for the Brothers but of course some top fighters refused these terms so we don't have the specifics.

There is no getting away from the fact that Vitali did not fight over 20 Ring ranked opponents whilst he himself was ranked.
Mentioning other names that may have acted similarly does not excuse this.
"He did it so why can't I?" is not any mitigation.

Those that acted as Vitali did are as culpable of ducking as he is.

I've said he and his Brother are admirable men and I meant it,but Vitali's legacy is terminally damaged by the lack of meaningful names on it and not being floored or losing rounds to the likes of Manuel Charr ,Danny Williams, and Albert Sosnowski does not, and never will alter that fact.

He remains an alphabet champ who kept to the shallow end of the pool ,and never swam in deep water apart from challenging Lewis and losing.

" but I will shut down posters which are haters. Vitali fought 10 ring magazine opponents who were ranked when he fought them based on my and Cliff Rold's study. "

This above is a blatant attempt to deflect from the facts.I am an admirer of Vitali,.not a hater.

To compare Muhammad Ali's resume against Ring ranked opponents with Vitali's is pugilistic blasphemy Ali took some gimmees but ,in between them he faced everybody.

You won't find over 20 Ring ranked opponents he did not face!

Pre Title.

Logan no10
Lavorante no4
Cooper no10
Mitteff no8
Daniels no 8

Liston Champ
Liston no1
Patterson no2
Chuvalo no3
Cooper
London
Mildenberger no4
Williams
Terrell no1
Folley no2

Quarry no2
Bonavena no7
Frazier Champ
Ellis
Mathis
Blin
Foster no5
Chuvalo
Quarry no2
Lewis
Patterson no7
Foster LHvy Champ
Norton 9
Lubbers
Frazier no2
Foreman Champ
Wepner no10
Lyle no3
Bugner no 5
Frazier no 2
Coopman
Young no2
Dunn
Norton no1
Evangelista no9
Shavers?
Spinks no9
Spinks Champ
Holmes Champ
Berbick no7
Anyone equating that resume with Vitali's should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves!

[Dr. Z]

" but I will shut down posters which are haters. Vitali fought 10 ring magazine opponents who were ranked when he fought them based on my and Cliff Rold's study. "

This above is a blatant attempt to deflect from the facts.I am an admirer of Vitali,.not a hater.

To compare Muhammad Ali's resume against Ring ranked opponents with Vitali's is pugilistic blasphemy Ali took some gimmees but ,in between them he faced everybody.

You won't find over 20 Ring ranked opponents he did not face!
Liston Champ
Liston no1
Patterson no2
Chuvalo no3
Cooper
London
Mildenberger no4
Williams
Terrell no1
Folley no2

Quarry no2
Bonavena no7
Frazier Champ
Ellis
Mathis
Blin
Foster no5
Chuvalo
Quarry no2
Lewis
Patterson no7
Foster LHvy Champ
Norton 9
Lubbers
Frazier no2
Foreman Champ
Wepner no10
Lyle no3
Bugner no 5
Frazier no 2
Coopman
Young no2
Dunn
Norton no1
Evangelista no9
Shavers?
Spinks no9
Spinks Champ
Holmes Champ
Berbick no7
Anyone equating that resume with Vitali's should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves!

I am not directly comparing the legacies with Ali, just pointing out your acrimonious nit picking facts that you do not apply to others. You seldom do. They all fight men as long tenured champion that didn't deserve title shots over the ring magazine ranked contenders but few that Vitali fought " the unworthy types "as your point out, he blew them out, not getting floored, losing rounds to them as the field of greats heavyweights often did. Some would say Ali got gifted decisions too. You list plenty if them.

No need to mention the names you listed as Ali is in my top three heavyweights of all time. Three men have fought more ring magazine ranked contenders! Still even Ali wanted no part of re-matching Foreman. I think he lost on if the Norton fights for sure the he officially won, ad you could say the same thing for his match with Jimmy Young. The Shavers fight was very close. And this does not mention a fights where he was down, or a razor thin win that Ali had on the cards such as Sonny Banks and Doug Jones.

One of the things I outlined in this thread is Vitali was utterly dominant regardless on the score cards of who he fought, whether they were ring magazine ranked opponent or not!

You miss such points.