1905 JJ Jeffries vs JJohnson?

[travestyny]

, non-objectivity is not

This is exactly why the evidence of "he said, she said," sometimes does not work for me. Jefferies' statement does not do it for me. "I could never have beaten him," is a common boxing trope. Many have said it. A man who just got his ass handed to him is diffident and subject to utter such words.

I do know this: the press were continually going on about how strong Jeff was. Let's see if the negro likes to clinch and wrestle against such strength as Jeff's, by God, was the essential attitude. So Johnson told them that during the fight he would pin Jeff's arm behind the big boy's own back. And indeed the film clearly shows exactly this happening at least once that I know of. Johnson was fulfilling his promise, so he made it obvious.

Johnson said some things too. A lot of boxers and managers and promoters have forever said some things. Giving these utterances too much credence leads to false truths. It would have to, right? Now we have people in the far future from Johnson's era relying heavily on "he said, she said," to argue the truth of matters long ago. I can just see some journalist a hundred years from now digging up some of Tyson Fury's statements and relying on them for how he really felt about this or that matter. Comical, right?

You have to use everything you've got, to give your best determination. Rumors, all of it. Journalism is good, but it takes a lot of judiciousness and objectivity. Boxers, promoters, mangers, trainers and writers say things all the time not only for their truth value but in order to influence their own current events. Some trainer is not sincere when he says the opponent they would like to fight has no heart, or some other such pejorative. He is trying to make things happen.

I'd say giving Jeff's own assessment credence is much better than an eye test from someone born in the 1960's (that's not aimed at you or anyone...just giving an example). You never know what going to happen in a fight. Fantasy fights are just that to me. That's why I rarely give an opinion on who would have won. I don't think anyone would have chosen Ruiz to defeat Joshua at the time of their first fight, so the whole fantasy fight thing is irrelevant to me anyway.

[travestyny]

The article is Delaney speaking (supposedly for Jeffries) and he says "'Jeffries (third person) under no circumstances will fight a Negro."

But then Jeffries does fight Jack Johnson (a Negro) so why are we placing any value on a Billy Delaney quote (not Jeffries) that states unequivocally that Jeffries wouldn't fight Johnson, when we know full well Jeffries would fight Johnson. Because he did.

It's bad enough when someone posts a Dempsey quote stating he won't cross the color line, when we all know we can find various examples of Dempsey saying just the opposite.

At least with the pointless Dempsey quoting he actually didn't fight Wills.

But this is a ridiculous argument to make, that a guy's manager says we won't take the fight, but the fighter will and does. Why make this argument?

Why are we wasting time with an irrelevant Billy Delaney quote?

Bullshlt.

He was coaxed to take the fight later. That's much different than initially. Doesn't take rocket science to figure this out.


You want a quotation from him instead? Well here you go. So you don't have to cry about it coming from someone else anymore.

jnQkWx.png

[Willie Pep 229]

Bullshlt.

He was coaxed to take the fight later. That's much different than initially. Doesn't take rocket science to figure this out.


You want a quotation from him instead? Well here you go. So you don't have to cry about it coming from someone else anymore.

jnQkWx.png

Ok, now that s a firsthand quote. But then he did fight Johnson so what does it actually matter what he said?

[Dr. Z]

Bullshlt.

He was coaxed to take the fight later. That's much different than initially. Doesn't take rocket science to figure this out.


You want a quotation from him instead? Well here you go. So you don't have to cry about it coming from someone else anymore.

jnQkWx.png

So he should fight a teenage Sam Mcvey instead of Fitzsimmons and Corbett? They were much bigger fights and more money. McVey by the way retired in 1904 ( no fights listed ) Boxing is full of managers who think unworthy guys, which Mcvey at the time of the quote deserve a title shot. What was his record and age back then? Think about it. Sam Mcvey deserved a title shot when Johnson was champ. He was much better then and in his prime.

I think you will get it. It's not rocket science like you said.

[travestyny]

Ok, now that s a firsthand quote. But then he did fight Johnson so what does it actually matter what he said?

He fought him years later, bruh. After much pressure coming from various places. He wanted no part of him and was coaxed into it later.

[travestyny]

So he should fight a teenage Sam Mcvey instead of Fitzsimmons and Corbett? They were much bigger fights and more money. McVey by the way retired in 1904 ( no fights listed ) Boxing is full of managers who think unworthy guys, which Mcvey at the time of the quote deserve a title shot. What was his record and age back then? Think about it. Sam Mcvey deserved a title shot when Johnson was champ. He was much better then and in his prime.

I think you will get it. It's not rocket science like you said.

Jeffries didn't want McVey or Johnson. People around him were saying he was afraid of Johnson.

Jeffries already beat Corbett and Fitzsimmons at this time. He fought James Monroe who only was 9 fights in instead, so I don't think the number of fights is relevant.

Seems to me that the California match makers wanted the fights. It's not like they were just hopping planes at this time. They wanted to make good fights with the talent that was available.

This article hints at that and also exposes Jeffries excuse making. You might need to enlarge it a bit.
rAoVMh.png

[GhostofDempsey]

The thread poster and his tag partners cannot leave Johnson alone, they are like frenzied dogs ,compulsively returning to a shallowly buried old bone.

Everyone with any knowledge of Jeffries knows that he many ,many times said he would never chance losing his title against a black man and that he would retire," when there were no more white challengers left to fight".

Jeffries picked Johnson to win the Hart fight and publicly stated ,if he did he would not defend against him if he did.

This "click bait post" is not worthy of a serious response.

Why go to the trouble of pasting verified statements from the protagonists concerned that emphatically contradict all this fool will type?

This troll will ignore any serious evidence that totally rebutts his cast fly upon the water , or reply to it in childish, ****** ,pidgin, English.

There is no tangible benefit to be gained from engaging with this ignoramus,he has no interest in boxing just in the disruption of those that do, and the puerile satisfaction of seeing his infantile posts in print.

Apart from how to behave like a selfish, immature buffoon, and how to shamelessly prevaricate,anti Johnson BS ,there is nothing to be learned from this poster.

Don't give this Muppet the satisfaction of responding to him directly,you award a credibility to him he has never earned.

He is the forums virus. Get vaccinated against him!
Whenever threads on Johnson go quiet one of these sad clowns ,Snitch or Snatch, or the other phobic Johnson hater, Ghost of Degeneracy will make a post to keep the hate pot boiling

Cue time for one of the other 2 haters to give him a like ,and weigh in with his own mis -spelt load of venomous misinformation.

It's a shame they are doing this to the Forum, but nevertheless it's a sad fact!.

Keep my name out of your angry mouth. All you do is argue, complain, call other posters names, and throw tantrums, then you try to kiss ass when someone agrees with you or a mod gives you a warning. You a very toxic person, stop saying it’s a shame what we are doing to the forum when it’s you. You were banned on another forum for this behavior now you want to bring it here. A mod already gave a warning to quit this nonsense. You have since continued your passive aggressive behavior and hostility.

Why should you care if people want to discuss how Johnson/Jeffries would go in 1905? Why does that offend you? Why do you defend him so vehemently as if he some sacred god immune to criticism or speculation?

[GhostofDempsey]

, non-objectivity is not

This is exactly why the evidence of "he said, she said," sometimes does not work for me. Jefferies' statement does not do it for me. "I could never have beaten him," is a common boxing trope. Many have said it. A man who just got his ass handed to him is diffident and subject to utter such words.

I do know this: the press were continually going on about how strong Jeff was. Let's see if the negro likes to clinch and wrestle against such strength as Jeff's, by God, was the essential attitude. So Johnson told them that during the fight he would pin Jeff's arm behind the big boy's own back. And indeed the film clearly shows exactly this happening at least once that I know of. Johnson was fulfilling his promise, so he made it obvious.

Johnson said some things too. A lot of boxers and managers and promoters have forever said some things. Giving these utterances too much credence leads to false truths. It would have to, right? Now we have people in the far future from Johnson's era relying heavily on "he said, she said," to argue the truth of matters long ago. I can just see some journalist a hundred years from now digging up some of Tyson Fury's statements and relying on them for how he really felt about this or that matter. Comical, right?

You have to use everything you've got, to give your best determination. Rumors, all of it. Journalism is good, but it takes a lot of judiciousness and objectivity. Boxers, promoters, mangers, trainers and writers say things all the time not only for their truth value but in order to influence their own current events. Some trainer is not sincere when he says the opponent they would like to fight has no heart, or some other such pejorative. He is trying to make things happen.

Johnson was quoted saying he would draw the color line, he said he was the first black champ and would be the last, he said he threw the fight against Willard, he said Langford knocked him down, he lied about dozens of other things, yet the same poster doesn’t believe his quotes, he only believes quotes in 100 year old articles that support his agenda. It’s more cherry picking of sources to reach a pre-determined conclusion.

[Willie Pep 229]

Jeffries didn't want McVey or Johnson. People around him were saying he was afraid of Johnson.

Jeffries already beat Corbett and Fitzsimmons at this time. He fought James Monroe who only was 9 fights in instead, so I don't think the number of fights is relevant.

Seems to me that the California match makers wanted the fights. It's not like they were just hopping planes at this time. They wanted to make good fights with the talent that was available.

This article hints at that and also exposes Jeffries excuse making. You might need to enlarge it a bit.
rAoVMh.png

Cite the articles --> newspaper and date. We should know who is speaking.

[The Old LefHook]

Ok, now that s a firsthand quote. But then he did fight Johnson so what does it actually matter what he said?

This guy Travesty is all about "he said, she said," don't you know? That is all he's got. He is just hanging around waiting for another thread on race, licking his chops. Oh, wait, this one is about race. I should have known he would be home.