Did Monzon Benefit From Crooked Judges As Left Hook States ?

[Ivich]

As I said they were shorter--all of them had limited reaches and in some cases no power. In fact the only true puncher Monzon meet was Valdez. Some had awful records. Vennenuti was the only good natural middle, as started.

Other legends at middle weight, and Carlos was one of them fought taller, longer, and heavier men. And quicker handed men in general. I'm not going to spend a lot of time typing them out. You can't change facts Ivich. He retried new his prime too. Posters like Battling Nelson have points. The scoring is bad in Argentina. It's the home of the draw, and unwise to bet on either man because of it. I don't detect bad referring scoring in Monzon filmed fights by the way, but bad refs when Monzon needed it, yes, you can make that point.

No Benvenuti and Mundine were both 5'11 1/2 "the same size as Monzon.Bouttier,Tonna and Bogs were all 5'91/2" that's not short for a 160lbs man .
Loads of men shorter than 5 ft 91/2in have won the middleweight title
Including great ones such as
Ketchel
Greb
Walker
Lamotta
Zale
Basilio
Tiger
Griffith
Hagler
Valdez
Alvarez
Yours is a spurious argument designed to cheapen Monzon's wins ,and it won't run,neither will the argument he didn't fight full fledged middles as his and his opponents weigh in stats emphatically prove.

Marvin Hagler ,one of the top 4 middles of all time imo had his best wins over
Hearns a former Welterweight
Duran a former Lightweight
Mugabi a former Light Middle
Drew with Antuofermo a former Light middle
Lost to Leonard ,a former Welter who had been retired for 3 years.
Beat Briscoe who was 35 years old.He was 29 when Monzon fought him.

Current Middleweight king Golovkin made defences against;
Brook Welterweight
Ouma former Welterweight
Rosado former Light Middle
Lemieux ex Light Middle
Proksa ex Light Middle
Ishida ex Light Middle.
He was also taller than all of them at 5ft 10 1/2in so should we discount those defences?


Why would you penalise Monzon if he beat shorter men where is the logic in that?
If you have been a middleweight for a decade and are under 30, by definition you are a natural middleweight.
Which of Monzon's challengers had awful records?
Valdez 57-4-2 and 59-5-2 43 kos in 63 wins .The only man to stop Briscoe
Mundine 47-3-1?Not a puncher?64 kos in 80 wins.Won national titles at Lhvy and Hvy
Briscoe 43-10-1?Not a puncher?53kos in 66 wins.
Bouttier 62-4-1?Not a puncher? 43kos in 64 wins.Had just stopped Kevin Finnegan for the Euro title and he stopped Alan Minter.
Bogs 63-4-1Dropped John Conteh Fought for the Euro Lhvy crown,and went on to beat Quarry,Rondon Guttierez,Jones at Lhvy.
Benvenuti 82-4-1 and 82-6-1?
Tonna Not a puncher? 37kos in 46 wins . Stopped Finnegan and Minter.

Domestic ****er he beat;
Emilio Ali 52kos in 63 wins.
Limited reaches?
Mundine 73 1/2"
Tonna 75"
Briscoe 71"
Bogs 75"
Valdez 70" 2 inches more than Marciano
Benvenuti 75"
Griffith 72" 4 inches more than Marciano
Bouttier 75"
Moyer 72"

Recent smaller middleweight champions
Canelo' reach 70 1.2" 5 ft 8 in tall
Cotto reach 67" 5 ft 7 in tall
Duran reach 66" 5ft 7 "
Kalambay 72 reach 5ft 9 in tall
Minter reach 71" 5ft 9i n tall
Antuofermo reach 69" 5ft 7 1/2in tall

Not that it would make any difference if he did,but Monzon did not retire near his prime,he retired on his birthday, August 7th 1977and he was born in1942 so he was 35years old.
Monzon was past prime when he fought his last few defences 34 and33 against Valdez and for the last 5 years of his career had been plagued with arthritis in his hands for which he needed injections.
I've convincingly refuted all your biased points and the reason you did not,"spend a lot of time typing out" your proof is because you do not have any.

[them_apples]

No Benvenuti and Mundine were both 5'11 1/2 "the same size as Monzon.Bouttier,Tonna and Bogs were all 5'91/2" that's not short for a 160lbs man .
Loads of men shorter than 5 ft 91/2in have won the middleweight title
Including great ones such as
Ketchel
Greb
Walker
Lamotta
Zale
Basilio
Tiger
Griffith
Hagler
Valdez
Alvarez
Yours is a spurious argument designed to cheapen Monzon's wins ,and it won't run,neither will the argument he didn't fight full fledged middles as his and his opponents weigh in stats emphatically prove.

Marvin Hagler ,one of the top 4 middles of all time imo had his best wins over
Hearns a former Welterweight
Duran a former Lightweight
Mugabi a former Light Middle
Drew with Antuofermo a former Light middle
Lost to Leonard ,a former Welter who had been retired for 3 years.
Beat Briscoe who was 35 years old.He was 29 when Monzon fought him.

Current Middleweight king Golovkin made defences against;
Brook Welterweight
Ouma former Welterweight
Rosado former Light Middle
Lemieux ex Light Middle
Proksa ex Light Middle
Ishida ex Light Middle.
He was also taller than all of them at 5ft 10 1/2in so should we discount those defences?


Why would you penalise Monzon if he beat shorter men where is the logic in that?
If you have been a middleweight for a decade and are under 30, by definition you are a natural middleweight.
Which of Monzon's challengers had awful records?
Valdez 57-4-2 and 59-5-2 43 kos in 63 wins .The only man to stop Briscoe
Mundine 47-3-1?Not a puncher?64 kos in 80 wins.Won national titles at Lhvy and Hvy
Briscoe 43-10-1?Not a puncher?53kos in 66 wins.
Bouttier 62-4-1?Not a puncher? 43kos in 64 wins.Had just stopped Kevin Finnegan for the Euro title and he stopped Alan Minter.
Bogs 63-4-1Dropped John Conteh Fought for the Euro Lhvy crown,and went on to beat Quarry,Rondon Guttierez,Jones at Lhvy.
Benvenuti 82-4-1 and 82-6-1?
Tonna Not a puncher? 37kos in 46 wins . Stopped Finnegan and Minter.

Domestic ****er he beat;
Emilio Ali 52kos in 63 wins.
Limited reaches?
Mundine 73 1/2"
Tonna 75"
Briscoe 71"
Bogs 75"
Valdez 70" 2 inches more than Marciano
Benvenuti 75"
Griffith 72" 4 inches more than Marciano
Bouttier 75"
Moyer 72"

Recent smaller middleweight champions
Canelo' reach 70 1.2" 5 ft 8 in tall
Cotto reach 67" 5 ft 7 in tall
Duran reach 66" 5ft 7 "
Kalambay 72 reach 5ft 9 in tall
Minter reach 71" 5ft 9i n tall
Antuofermo reach 69" 5ft 7 1/2in tall

Not that it would make any difference if he did,but Monzon did not retire near his prime,he retired on his birthday, August 7th 1977and he was born in1942 so he was 35years old.
Monzon was past prime when he fought his last few defences 34 and33 against Valdez and for the last 5 years of his career had been plagued with arthritis in his hands for which he needed injections.
I've convincingly refuted all your biased points and the reason you did not,"spend a lot of time typing out" your proof is because you do not have any.

And when they did fight taller guys sometimes it was their easiest oponent. I don’t think it means that much in the big picture. Hagler was 5 ft 9 he seems to really bust up the taller guys. He fought a few of them, I think that long reach of his threw the taller men off because he was able to box with them on the outside which would throw them off because fighting outside is supposed to be an advantage for the taller guy. Liston often did the same thing which would cause taller guys to sort of “run” in the ring.

Ali never really outboxed Liston, he stayed away and tired liston out. After Liston blinded him with that substance he went ape**** trying to Ko Ali. He threw and missed so many shots in what he deemed as a good oppourtunity. After he was spent and took a breather Ali jumped on him and Liston basically quit (partly due to fatigue). Good sun tsu tactics by Ali though.

[Dr. Z]

Not that it would make any difference if he did,but Monzon did not retire near his prime,he retired on his birthday, August 7th 1977and he was born in1942 so he was 35years old.
Monzon was past prime when he fought his last few defences 34 and33 against Valdez and for the last 5 years of his career had been plagued with arthritis in his hands for which he needed injections.
I've convincingly refuted all your biased points and the reason you did not,"spend a lot of time typing out" your proof is because you do not have any

.

You think you did, but you can not excuses the records of who he fought. Moznon last fought at age 34. Do we really need to consider the age and condition of his opponents? That would be cruel. My point was that he retried that retired near his prime and by doing so preserved his image. And finally Hagler beat better competition Mozon did. And you compare some of Mozon's sub par title opponents to ring legends. Right. Ask around if you dare. You countered nothing. Is I choose to stick around and type so more, I will expose more. My hunch is you won't like it.

[Ivich]

.

You think you did, but you can not excuses the records of who he fought. Moznon last fought at age 34. Do we really need to consider the age and condition of his opponents? That would be cruel. My point was that he retried that retired near his prime and by doing so preserved his image. And finally Hagler beat better competition Mozon did. And you compare some of Mozon's sub par title opponents to ring legends. Right. Ask around if you dare. You countered nothing. Is I choose to stick around and type so more, I will expose more. My hunch is you won't like it.

I've dealt with the height and weight issue,now lets look at your other statements.
The age and condition of his opponents.
The ages of his challengers.
Briscoe was 29, Monzon 30. Briscoe was43-10-1 Ranked no 6
Bouttier was27 for both his title challenges, Monzon 30 and 31.Bouttier was 62-4-1Ranked no4&4
Valdez was 30 and 31 for his challenges,Monzon 33 and 34.Valdez was 57-4-2 and 59-5-2Ranked no 1 & No2
Licata was 23 ,Monzon 32.Licata was49-1-3Ranked no2
Napoles 32, Monzon 31.Napoles was 77-5-0
Griffith was 33 and 35 Monzon29 and 30.Griffith was70-11-0 and76-13-0Ranked no 1 & no 2
Moyer was33 ,Monzon 29 Moyer was83-22-4 Ranked no3
Mundine was23, Monzon 32.Mundine was 47contende -3-1 Ranked no1
Tonna was 26 ,Monzon 33.Tonna was 36-4-0 Ranked no4
Bogs was 28 ,Monzon30.Bogs was 63-4-1
Benvenuti was33, Monzon28 Benvenuti was 82-6-1 Ranked no1

"Hagler fought better opposition?"
Monzon
4 defences against the number 1contender
3 defences against the number 2 contender
3 defences against the number 4 contender
1 defence against the number 6 contender
1 defence against the reigning Welterweight champion
Only 1 defence against an unranked challenger.


14 fights only 4 opponents were older.
Napoles by one year and he was the reigning welterweight champion he was 31 and would make a further 4 successful defences of his title.
Griffith by 4 years and 5 years He was the number 1 middleweight contender.
Moyer by 4 years he was ranked no6 at the time.His record was 83-22-4
Benvenuti was the number 1 challenger his record was 82-6-1
Of those 14 fights only Bogs was unranked 11 were in the top 6, the other the welterweight champion.
"Monzon retired near his prime"

No he didnt ,he retired on his 35 th birthday having had100 fights and been suffering with arthritis in his hands for years.
If Monzon at 35 was near prime ,then what were his challengers ?
Moyer 33
Tonna 26
Bogs 28
Napoles32
Benvenuti 33
Mundine 23
Licata23
Briscoe 29
Bouttier 27 x2
Valdez 30 & 31

NB Marvin Hagler retired at 33 after 67 fights was he "near his prime"?
Hagler was beaten by a 3 years retired ,31 years old ex welter who had never fought at middleweight.
Hagler's," better opposition"
Hagler successfully defended his title12 times.

Defences against the number 1 challenger 1
Defences against the number 2 challenger 1
Defences against the number 3 challenger 2
Defences against the number 4 challenger 0
Defences against the number 5 challenger 1
Defences against the number 6 challenger 4
Defences against unranked challengers 3 Including the loss to Leonard


You can't have it both ways!
You have no argument!

[QueensburyRules]

.

You think you did, but you can not excuses the records of who he fought. Moznon last fought at age 34. Do we really need to consider the age and condition of his opponents? That would be cruel. My point was that he retried that retired near his prime and by doing so preserved his image. And finally Hagler beat better competition Mozon did. And you compare some of Mozon's sub par title opponents to ring legends. Right. Ask around if you dare. You countered nothing. Is I choose to stick around and type so more, I will expose more. My hunch is you won't like it.

- - Monzon took all his losses, draws, and NC in Argentina, so how is that favoritism?

Undefeated internationally at his best, so how is that Argentinian favoritism?

671 rounds fought in 100 fights, and you want to claim "near prime?"

Obviously he was better than his comp, and since he didn't hang around stinking up the place like many well known American fighters, we can say he had a stellar career overall well packed with fights, so his "prime" being argued over by a bunch of sillyboys who can't even get close to the ninnygram witticism of toofless Leffy is irrelevant.

Marv had 5 years overlap to challenge Monzon, but weren't near close to being ready, so whatever U think about Monzon is also irrelevant save Marv a nicer guy, but being a nice guy don't make him better than Monzon, but he didn't hang around to stink up the place like his victor Leonard, so he and Monzon blood brothers in that regard.

[Ivich]

And when they did fight taller guys sometimes it was their easiest oponent. I don’t think it means that much in the big picture. Hagler was 5 ft 9 he seems to really bust up the taller guys. He fought a few of them, I think that long reach of his threw the taller men off because he was able to box with them on the outside which would throw them off because fighting outside is supposed to be an advantage for the taller guy. Liston often did the same thing which would cause taller guys to sort of “run” in the ring.

Ali never really outboxed Liston, he stayed away and tired liston out. After Liston blinded him with that substance he went ape**** trying to Ko Ali. He threw and missed so many shots in what he deemed as a good oppourtunity. After he was spent and took a breather Ali jumped on him and Liston basically quit (partly due to fatigue). Good sun tsu tactics by Ali though.

Hagler is listed as five feet eight, his reach seventy five.