Did Monzon Benefit From Crooked Judges As Left Hook States ?

[Dr. Z]

Yea me neither - I was just speaking in the abstract about double burdering the referee by giving him two distinctive, but important tasks.

Re my earlier post which I stated that there 'probably was some bias' was more a nod to tradition than anything particular to Monzon's fights.

Right. He didn't win any close decisions though. A biased ref against him would have gone the other way so its safe to say that he wasn't fighting bad score cards. Monzon wasn't in any SD fights as champion. In fact he didn't fight may good natural middle weights. It's true, he was often the big middle fighting smaller / older men. With his reach, activty and style he going to beat to smaller / shorter blown up middles and he retired in his prime or near prime.

[Ivich]

Like so many things in life, this simple question about whether a ref was "fair" would seem capable of a binary answer as in "Yes/No." But when considering the vantage point of the ref, the context of the ref's actions, etc... I think two things should be apparent:

1. A ref scoring fights is a GREAT IDEA. The ref really sees punches and if they land... The ref can see subtlety, etc. The hand is quicker than the eye, how can judges even see punches land? ever think about that?

2. The Judges and the ref are fallible. One should always watch the fights and judge oneself... always!

I have watched this fight and do think the ref was curtailing briscoe a bit... I don't think it was enough to influence the fight which was competative.

The ref warned Briscoe early for being careless with his head.I think that was unjustified the 2nd warning for head work looked deliberate to me and therefore justified .Briscoe was warned once for punching low,something he did all night ,and warned once for kidney punching something he also continually did,but Monzon contributed to it by turning into them. The ref only officiated for Monzon twice in his hundred fights so he wasn't some house referee for him. Bottom line, a poster made some statements here and when called to prove them,flew into a childish rage, spewing personal insults at me from the safety of his pc.No matter ,its always best to find out the character of whom you're dealing with as soon as possible.Sewage like this below doesn't impress me, it just exposes the poster as a **** and,as the saying goes,once a **** always a ****.

"I don't have to supply you with anything, halfwit. Who are you, some top poster? You are sooo full of ****. We can see the ****ing fight and what a bull****ter you are. You will do about anything to perpetuate your ignorance. It is supported by fact, you ****ing piece of dog ****. I watched the referee shut down Briscoe. Please **** yourself."

[Ivich]

Right. He didn't win any close decisions though. A biased ref against him would have gone the other way so its safe to say that he wasn't fighting bad score cards. Monzon wasn't in any SD fights as champion. In fact he didn't fight may good natural middle weights. It's true, he was often the big middle fighting smaller / older men. With his reach, activty and style he going to beat to smaller / shorter blown up middles and he retired in his prime or near prime.

Monzon fought plenty of big middles;
Briscoe
Tonna
Valdez
Bogs
Benvenuti
Licata
Mundine


Monzon was
3/4lb heavier than Valdez for their 2nd fight.
1/4lb lighter for their 1st.
1/2lb heavier than Mundine
1/4lb lighter than Bogs
3/4lb heavier than Briscoe 1st fight
Level weights with Bouttier 1st fight
3/4lbs heavier 2nd fight
3/4lbs lighter than Licata
1 3/4lbs heavier than Griffith 2nd fight
1/4lb heavier than Moyer
Level weights with Benvenuti 1 fight 1/2lb lighter the other fight

Monzon was 29 when he won the title
29 v Moyer
29 Griffith 1
30 v Bogs
30 v Briscoe 2
31 v Griffith 2
31 Bouttier
32v Napoles
33 v Valdez 1
34 v Mundine
34 vTonna
34v Valdez2
33 Licata

[Dr. Z]

Ivich

Monzon fought plenty of big middles;

Briscoe
Tonna
Valdez
Bogs
Benvenuti
Licata
Mundine

Did he, many of them were blown up lower weight fighters and short just like I said. Your choose them carefully.

Briscoe was a 5-8" jr middle weight who lost 24 times and drew once. He gave Monzon a tough fight
Valdez a 5-8" 70 reach was a blown up jr welter.
Tonna wasn't very good. He was highly protected fighter on the way up who was KO'd and lost 11 times. Short too, he beat who? Exactly.
Bogs wasn't the good either, he was a 5'91/2" guy not a puncher, and was blown out.
Venvenuti was a natural middle. We have one, but he was also an Italian playboy type. Perhaps the best natural middle Monzon beat.
Licata short no power guy.
Mundine lost 15 times, was ko'd 10 times and drew once, but at least he was a natural middle

These are the best natural middles Monzon fought? Small competition, like I said. Monzon never fought a man his height, or one with power aside form Valdez who had power and floored him. Monzon retried before he got old, persevering his image. Didn't fight anyone really quick handed. His competition in general was worse than Haglers, Jones, of Hopkins and IMO they would have beaten him.

[QueensburyRules]

Did he, many of them were blown up lower weight fighters and short just like I said. Your choose them carefully.

Briscoe was a 5-8" jr middle weight who lost 24 times and drew once. He gave Monzon a tough fight
Valdez a 5-8" 70 reach was a blown up jr welter.
Tonna wasn't very good. He was highly protected fighter on the way up who was KO'd and lost 11 times. Short too, he beat who? Exactly.
Bogs wasn't the good either, he was a 5'91/2" guy not a puncher, and was blown out.
Venvenuti was a natural middle. We have one, but he was also an Italian playboy type. Perhaps the best natural middle Monzon beat.
Licata short no power guy.
Mundine lost 15 times, was ko'd 10 times and drew once, but at least he was a natural middle

These are the best natural middles Monzon fought? Small competition, like I said. Monzon never fought a man his height, or one with power aside form Valdez who had power and floored him. Monzon retried before he got old, persevering his image. Didn't fight anyone really quick handed. His competition in general was worse than Haglers, Jones, of Hopkins and IMO they would have beaten him.

- - "Venny" an outstanding record and life longevity for an Italian playboy.

Marv was 5-8 for the five years they was active together, so need to include him not ready to fight Monzon and only being 5-8.

See how that works?

[Ivich]

Did he, many of them were blown up lower weight fighters and short just like I said. Your choose them carefully.

Briscoe was a 5-8" jr middle weight who lost 24 times and drew once. He gave Monzon a tough fight
Valdez a 5-8" 70 reach was a blown up jr welter.
Tonna wasn't very good. He was highly protected fighter on the way up who was KO'd and lost 11 times. Short too, he beat who? Exactly.
Bogs wasn't the good either, he was a 5'91/2" guy not a puncher, and was blown out.
Venvenuti was a natural middle. We have one, but he was also an Italian playboy type. Perhaps the best natural middle Monzon beat.
Licata short no power guy.
Mundine lost 15 times, was ko'd 10 times and drew once, but at least he was a natural middle

These are the best natural middles Monzon fought? Small competition, like I said. Monzon never fought a man his height, or one with power aside form Valdez who had power and floored him. Monzon retried before he got old, persevering his image. Didn't fight anyone really quick handed. His competition in general was worse than Haglers, Jones, of Hopkins and IMO they would have beaten him.

Briscoe was a full middleweight for the last10 years of his career . He was 57-3-2 & 59-5-2 when he fought Monzon.
Briscoe was29 when he challenged Monzon and 35 when he went the distance with Hagler giving him a good fight.Bennie was a pro for 20 years ,10 of his losses came in the last 5 years of his career.


Valdez was a full middle for the last10 years of his career,He was 57-4-2 &59-5-1 when he fought Monzon. He was heavier than Monzon for their 1st fight and only3/4 of a pound lighter for the 2nd.

Tonna was 5' 9 1/ 75" reach and was 36-4-2 Full middle.

Licata was heavier than Monzon at160lbs and was 49-1-3.Full middle .Licata had very quick hands
you are desperately trying to nit pick Monzon's opposition and its so obvious its laughable! How many of Monzon's 100 fights have you seen to say he never fought anyone quick handed?

Benvenuti was the same height and weight as Monzon and was 82-4-1and 82-6-1 Full Middle.

Bogs was 5'9 1/2"and fought at Lhvy too 1.4lb difference between them Bogs was 63-4-1.Full middle

Mundine was at 5' 11 1/2" the same height he was 47-3-1He fought all the way up to heavyweight he was a puncher who scorer 64 kos in 80 wins.he had lost just 3 times in 51 fights . Full middle

Bouttier was 5'9 1/2 "3/4 of a lb lighter he was 62-4-1. Full middle.


Saul Alvarez who is currently fighting at Lhv and Super Middle and has been middleweight champion and is Super Middle Champ is 5'8" Do I need to name all the middleweight champions that have been smaller than Monzon's challengers?
Zale
Walker
Lamotta
Graziano
Cotto
Canelo
Cerdan
Papke
Tiger
Basilio
For example.
Here's a couple more who were pretty successful
.
Harry Greb & Marvin Hagler!
Your post is so biased against Monzon it cannot be taken seriously. Monzon made 12 defences of his title 10 against top 6 rated men.One of the others was the reigning welterweight champion ,the otherTom Bogs would win the Euro middleweight tile 3 fights later,and go onto beat Quarry Rondon,Guttierrez,Jones at Lhvy and floor John Conteh in a Euro lhvy title bid.

[BattlingNelson]

.Did you see any blatant bias? The most corrupt referees have been continental imo and some of the German decisions among the worst.

When talking corrupt officiating, it comes everywhere. When did a big north american star lose in the US to a european? Big home stars always gets home treatment.

When talking about horrible officiating in Argentina, this is a notorious example:

https://********/ASsZsHO3HWs

https://********/ASsZsHO3HWs

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ASsZsHO3HWs" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://<iframe width="560" height="3...reen></iframe>

[Ivich]

When talking corrupt officiating, it comes everywhere. When did a big north american star lose in the US to a european? Big home stars always gets home treatment.

When talking about horrible officiating in Argentina, this is a notorious example:

https://********/ASsZsHO3HWs

https://********/ASsZsHO3HWs

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ASsZsHO3HWs" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://<iframe width="560" height="3...reen></iframe>

That referee Isidoro Rodriguez , was a disgrace.

[Dr. Z]

Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
Did he, many of them were blown up lower weight fighters and short just like I said. Your choose them carefully.

Briscoe was a 5-8" jr middle weight who lost 24 times and drew once. He gave Monzon a tough fight
Valdez a 5-8" 70 reach was a blown up jr welter.
Tonna wasn't very good. He was highly protected fighter on the way up who was KO'd and lost 11 times. Short too, he beat who? Exactly.
Bogs wasn't the good either, he was a 5'91/2" guy not a puncher, and was blown out.
Venvenuti was a natural middle. We have one, but he was also an Italian playboy type. Perhaps the best natural middle Monzon beat.
Licata short no power guy.
Mundine lost 15 times, was ko'd 10 times and drew once, but at least he was a natural middle

These are the best natural middles Monzon fought? Small competition, like I said. Monzon never fought a man his height, or one with power aside form Valdez who had power and floored him. Monzon retried before he got old, persevering his image. Didn't fight anyone really quick handed. His competition in general was worse than Haglers, Jones, of Hopkins and IMO they would have beaten him.

As I said they were shorter--all of them had limited reaches and in some cases no power. In fact the only true puncher Monzon meet was Valdez. Some had awful records. Vennenuti was the only good natural middle, as started.

Other legends at middle weight, and Carlos was one of them fought taller, longer, and heavier men. And quicker handed men in general. I'm not going to spend a lot of time typing them out. You can't change facts Ivich. He retried new his prime too. Posters like Battling Nelson have points. The scoring is bad in Argentina. It's the home of the draw, and unwise to bet on either man because of it. I don't detect bad referring scoring in Monzon filmed fights by the way, but bad refs when Monzon needed it, yes, you can make that point.

[Willie Pep 229]

That referee Isidoro Rodriguez , was a disgrace.

That's the fight I was trying to explain to you above. You should have heard the American broadcasters trying to make it sound OK LOL